What CMAs should spar/fight like!!!!

Mei are you in the Marines?

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

Was

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Awesome

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

Argh, jarheads...

I kind of laugh at combatives. The idea of it is great -- just like the idea of teaching everybody judo back when I was in basic. The reality of it is completely different. Not enough time to really learn it. Few are really well trained at it. And most of those who aren't well-trained still get tapped to teach combatives at the unit level. So the skill level doesn't improve.

There are soldiers who practice it and have implemented it -- Michael Yon's article, "Gates of Fire," describes a battlefield H2H situation (a phenomenal story if you haven't read it yet). But I have a suspicion that those most likely to need combatives skills, study outside the forts on their own time.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Exactly, they teach you skills in a relatively short period of time, hours compared to weeks/months/years.

While it gives you a very basic skill set, it does not grant proficiency in that skill set. So, wherever you are stationed, wherever you are serving/seeing action at, your best bet is to either find someone with knowledge or get the training out sector and develop your skills on your own, after all the primary skill set is the use of weaponry, not unarmed combat.

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“	Its supposed to be a combo of BJJ and San Shou just striped down. Personally I dont see much san shou and dont like the wrestling. If I tried that in a bar in Seoul I'd get my butt kicked. No stricks taught, no pressure points, just chokes and arm bars with no thought to possible multiple threats. It honestly reminds me of Pro Wresting...	”

I really hate to sound like a broken record and keep pointing this out again, and again, and again.... well not really... but I do feel the need to point it out again.

The guy who is responsible for starting the Modern Army Combatives program is Sgt. Matt Larsen from Ft. Benning in Columbus, GA. He is a good friend of mine and he has an MMA team that competes regularly with a great deal of success.

I see these comments made often
"Our style teaches to defeat multiple attackers"
"Our style teaches us not to fight on the ground"
"No stricks taught, no pressure points, just chokes and arm bars with no thought to possible multiple threats."

The entire premise of the Modern Army Combatives program was built around the destruction of that idea. They basically had MMA trained guys come in and beat the brakes off of these military combat trained guys who were supposedly trained to defeat multiple attackers and keep from going to the ground. Guys who were supposed to be able to defeat multiple armed opponents based on their theoretical training were being completely destroyed in seconds by a single, unarmed opponent that was trained in modern MMA principles. Now, the powers that be recognized the absolute folly in their prior paradigm and that this new evidence completely tore the playhouse to the ground. Then they made adjustments and the new Modern Army Combatives program was born. They put away and discarded all those predisposed myths and fallacies of multiple attackers, fighting on the ground and so forth when confronted with actual real time evidence that was blatantly to the contrary of that paradigm.

I think many TMAists would also benefit by facing this reality instead of hanging on to the old myths and predisposed paradigms that no longer have any weight nor hold any water at all when faced with the past 13 years of absolute, undeniable evidence.

If you simply want to train in LARP arts for the preservation of history and tradition, then so be it. If you want to train in those arts out of loyalty, physycal fitness, esoteric moral and character fortitude, then so be it. But to disparage modern training methods based on MMA and to claim that these LARP arts are combat worthy and are the deadly against multiple attackers and weapons when an overabundance of contrary evidence is staring you in the face is beyond moronic and is hindering your personal growth as a martial artist and promoting your growth as a Level 10 LARPer.

How much longer can the obvious be denied?

If you can't beat one guy then how can you expect to beat 4 or 5?

Let's lay this McDojo fantasy to rest once and for all.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

I'm not disparaging combatives as an idea. I'm saying -- and I think Green Horn is seeing the proof of this in action -- that it is not being trained correctly outside of the Ft. Benning test ground.

So soldiers are running around with the idea that it's for multiple attackers, it's more wrestling than striking, etc.

Also, if a soldier is in a situation where he's going H2H with the enemy, you can bet every dollar you have that there are multiple enemy in that situation and that there is a risk of being attacked by all of them. In that case, I don't think any type or level of H2H skill is going to have much of an effect whether they are armed or not; it's just numbers.

In GW1 our unit frequently made trips up to the lines before during & after hostilities. In addition to our M-16s our topkick issued each person a sidearm -- 1911 .45 with one unchambered bullet. Not being certain of the strength & capabilities of the IA at the time, we were told, "If the enemy attacks, chamber this bullet. If they overwhelm the line, don't bother fighting, just use this." I wasn't at all interested in blowing my own head off but the message was clear. Facing multiple attackers in close combat was the end of the line for most soldiers.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: oldguy l hope you all have good luck . this is one of the first what l feel can be productive threads on here. l remember a time when there were some really good chinese schools that did just that. l always thought the the mcdonalds approach to teaching was the destroyer of quaulity. lots of students ,lots of forms in a short time, tossing out ranks like mcdonalds sold burggers with no quaulity. maybe these throwdowns are a good idea for start.	”

These are very good points and I agree, schools that amass a large quantity of students and pass forms out like candy produce poor quality.

If you want to have a large class, that's all well and good, but spend the time training them right, work on technique, mechanics, power distribution, work on realistic training/self defense. For the forms aspect work on them slowly, apply each set of techniques to a realistic sparring scenario, work them out to see how they could actually be used in a real context.

And aye, throwdowns are a great idea, weed out the junk and strengthen the good, you'll see what you have to work with and on to build the community back up to it's former strengths, which is where we should still be, unfortunately that has long since fallen wayside in favor of money and the glory of having yea so many high ranking students adore and worship you, even though none have the ability to fight if their life depended on it.

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Lemme ask this. What if you have some very dedicated students, they train hard, are willing to learn fighting, but one or two are timid, lack self-confidence, and it shows in training? Would you let them go to a throwdown, make them go, or hold them back until they got more in-school experience?

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I am nowhere near qualified to be a teacher, but I would hold them back and give them more of my time to make sure they reach the level of the other students.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

In a way I hate to say this, but it's true. In order to teach true "fighting" techniques, some people and techniques, etc. have to be weeded out. I would favor a school having 10 students who can whoop a@# as to a school having 50 students, each with some pissy colored belt aorund their waist, that couldn't beat a one legged man in an a#$ kicking contest. That's just my opinion though.

“	I am nowhere near qualified to be a teacher, but I would hold them back and give them more of my time to make sure they reach the level of the other students.	”

I agree.

If I may, I made a thread regarding some San Soo videos I found online. Would you say they are of the other organization? Because some of those guys are seriously beyond . . . . . . sad . . . .

San Soo Video Compilation Thread

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

I couldn't get the videos to come up on this forsaken computer. Do you know what the source is? And not all of these San Soo schools teach a like. Even the ones in the same organazation. I don't know why. It's really quite disturbing how screwed up the unity is in our system. It really got the way after Jimmy died. It's sad really....

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Lemme ask this. What if you have some very dedicated students, they train hard, are willing to learn fighting, but one or two are timid, lack self-confidence, and it shows in training? Would you let them go to a throwdown, make them go, or hold them back until they got more in-school experience?	”

I would tend to keep them back and train them more, but if they were near to being ready, I would send them, sometimes a fight brings out the skills that training in a school can't.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

“	Originally Posted By: DaiSiHing01 I couldn't get the videos to come up on this forsaken computer. Do you know what the source is? And not all of these San Soo schools teach a like. Even the ones in the same organazation. I don't know why. It's really quite disturbing how screwed up the unity is in our system. It really got the way after Jimmy died. It's sad really....	”

I would say that there is a lack of unity in all Chinese Martial Arts in general. However, like yourself, I've seen some horrible Choy Lay Fut guys and I don't even want to be associated with them whatsoever.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”