What CMAs should spar/fight like!!!!

Why can't we all train like these guys? Kyokushin is traditional, look at their caliber of fighters. Daido Juku is traditional, look at their caliber of fighters. Enshin, Ashihara, Oyama Karate, and all the Kyokushin offshoots. 100% traditional. What's the difficult thing for CMAs to embrace?

Fighting is fighting. It's easy to do . . . . just . . . . fight. I don't get what's so hard about the concept of fighting harder makes a better fighter.

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Kyokushin Karate

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Daido Juku

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Daido Juku #2

Enjoy, discuss.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

True bro, we should be producing this.

This is the way my KF brothers and I spar, we fight hard and all take it to the ground, work throws, work power.

This would tie in to my state of MA's thread

It's time that KF regains what it once had, a reputation for being tough and having solid fighters, unfortunately that has long since gone away, time to bring it back

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

You guys forgetting about San Shou?

Fighting like Kyokushin does (or used to do) is very tough to implement in the states because of 1 thing: the personal injury lawsuit. I'm also not sure about their fighting method. Sure, they hit really hard. But they're squared off against each other and just firing punches into the torso. Not much strategy or finesse. I can go out into the street and do that right now. Probably get kicked in the head and knocked out like some of the guys in the video, but I don't have to train for months/years to do it.

The Daido Juku looks better trained, more thought out, good protective equipment (another thing that worries me about kyokushin -- the brain & the jewels need protection man!), good strategies in the ring.

I agree schools should train fighting more. I also think it should be an integrated part of the curriculum. Many KF schools teach it as an afterthought. I don't mean necessarily as part of all the classes, but the sparring class should be related to what students are learning in other classes, it should have experience levels, it should be just as well planned out as any other class.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

San Shou is good, but not all KF is San Shou and vice versa.

KF needs to be producing that level of fighting/fighters.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Agreed.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Sammy, I never said we should LOOK like Kyokushin fighters. Not at all. I think our systems are superior and can beat a Kyokushin fighter if we train at the same INTENSITY.

The thing I'm getting at is intent during training. What are the goals of CMA? What I am saying is that CMA teachers need to look at the original goals of their Arts, and rekindle the fire that has pretty much been lost.

We need to train with the intensity to hurt our opponents, and spar/fight like we mean it.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

l agree , but most teachers to-day have never fought and are only dancers. they dont know how to interpret the forms . in the last 40 plus years l have watched it go steadily down hill. at one time lessons included getting banged up now they hardly sweat. forms are sloppy and the more painfull methods of training arent done at all. when l was young a master was 70 80 years old who knew how to teach more than a dance now theres 20 and 30 year olds calling them selves a master . so what can you expect . they need to go back to the oldtimers and find out how its done . to much talk about theories also doesnt help you have to do it . theres a old saying in western gyms no pain no gain it hold true with tcm as well. we used no belts or sashes if you wanted to find out how good you are you fought someone who was known to be better. to go up to learn more advanced material you fought a teacher to earn it. if you didnt do well you even be bounced back to work on things closer to when you were a beginner.

INTENT is the Key to ALL THINGS! I have not yet found a CMA school to train in but looked at many of them in the area of florida Im from before I joined the army. Most of them had the notion that MA's were a great exercise method and little more. Today I speak about TCMA to any of the guys who practice army combatives and they mock the traditional styles. Its not just CMA, but all traditional styles which have lost there once glory. personally I thought Daido Juku the better rounded of the two styles. Again I say though Intent is the Key the intent of the teacher to teach a combat system for use in self defense, the student to learn that combat system for self defense. anything less is just half_a$$ if you ask me.

l agree its just what l said 40 50 years ago it was quite different . l think the fact that schools didnt get along in some cases and problems ended up in alleys lol. also if the teacher had no discernable fight record hed end up with no students . we called it quaulity control.now most are dancers and talk about there chi and other theories . how many in clubs to-day fight the teacher to go up the ladder.now not even the taiwanese tournement is nothing more than a money maker.

Very well said Green_Horn.

That is a problem with many TMA's currently, they teach forms, they give you the exercise, they teach conditioning, they give you the skills for use in a fight, but they lack intent, they don't have that goal in mind.

The newer generations of us instructors, among some of us at least, have that intent, have that focus want to return the TMA's to what they once were, effective forms of fighting and not just a pretty dance. Don't get me wrong, I love everything about TMA's; forms, philosophy, tradition, but where other arts are building solid fighters we aren't. We need to start doing this, TMA's are as effective in fighting events if used properly as any other style out there, I do MMA and have done some minor competitions and have used my TCMA very effectively against the people I've fought.

It all comes down to what the call for it is, not every school wants this, not many at all want it, which is a shame cause it leaves us on the sidelines and our arts woefully inadequate. In some cases it is not easy to turn things in this direction, it wasn't in mine but with persistence and determination one can get the ball rolling, gradually I have done that and pushed how more beneficial it is on my master and on my KF brothers so now it is more excepted, we all cross train in something, we all train with intent, we train realistic, we train Live, we fight each other and other styles to test our skills out, some of us fight competitively to further test our skills and prove their worth to the skeptics.

This is what more need to do. Rebuild the old ways, build solid all around fighters instead of sad LARPers.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

I visited Sifu today, and as good of a damned fighter he is, he just doesn't want to train his current students with the intent he did like 4-5 years ago. I guess times change, and so do people.

So my Sihing and I got together and he's gonna hook me up with some of his buddies who train to fight. We're gonna also be working full contact with a Jiu-Jutsu and Silat expert.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl You guys forgetting about San Shou?	”

nope
but frankly...
the overall level of san shou sucks

it's too bad, 'cause I like the rules
but it just doesn't attrackt enough good fighters to get the level up

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Fighting like Kyokushin does (or used to do) is very tough to implement in the states because of 1 thing: the personal injury lawsuit. I'm also not sure about their fighting method. Sure, they hit really hard. But they're squared off against each other and just firing punches into the torso. Not much strategy or finesse. I can go out into the street and do that right now. Probably get kicked in the head and knocked out like some of the guys in the video, but I don't have to train for months/years to do it.	”

I can't believe you just said that....

for my training I was send out to spar with as many different styles and school as possible by my instructor
and the kyokushin guys are the toughest fighters around
if you cannot see how well they fight, you might want to go to a tournament and compete with them

kyokushin doesn't just hand out belts either
they have to fight full contact for every single belt
hard...

Chief108

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“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka

OK, but I'm just not seeing that in the video above. I know they train frighteningly hard and stuff, I visited a kyokushin school when I was looking for a place to train. But I see much more technical complexity in the Daido Juku vids as well as in most MMA vids. Being able to pound people into meat is nice and all, but if you're already a big dumb testosterone-laden male it's not that hard to learn. It's much more challenging to learn how to protect yourself from ppl capable of pounding you into meat.

Daido Juku, MMA, BJJ, Judo, etc. have proven that technically complex moves can be trained into effectiveness in a live environment. TMA'ists who don't have the methods to train their moves can go and learn how these styles incorporate said training.

Mei Hua, LOL at the LARPer comment! Early on in my training several of the ppl I worked out with invited me along to a SF convention. I meet up with them at the hotel and they're all in costumes -- anime cosplayers! One told me they just signed up for kung fu so they could learn some cool-looking moves to do in their costumes. I suppose that's nice in the short run but none of them stuck around long enough to learn how to use those moves.

In every art there are ppl who just go through the motions half-a$$ed. It's up to the sifu to require everyone to meet his standards before moving up. Some of these students will get past the "dabbler" mentality and become serious, competent practitioners, but a majority will give up & move on. Unless a teacher wants to get rich by catering only to fantasies -- and there is a big market for that.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Your right. The level of teachers and practitioners who actually can fight well at high speed with power has been in decline for years. I know though that when I was training under my sifu who loved to fight this way that there were very few of us who could or would take it. A lot of teachers now are making the martial arts instruction their source of income and that changes things. When you have to pay the rent you don't want to be punching all your students out and making them leave. It is a tough thing to try and juggle a viable school and still teach the real thing. If you ask me that is what indoor students and disciples are all about in these cases.
But the truth of the matter is that we CMA have gotten a bad rep because of training methods going soft. Its terrible to witness a trained kung fu man with years of experience fight very very poorly against a MMA guy with less experience who has trained with a far higher level of intensity. Things do need to change and the present generation of instructors, us, need to change them.
my two cents.

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"If you meet Buddha on the road, Kill him."

you are so right students l had 30 40 years ago came came in expecting to hurt now most want it like a movie, but if a teacher knows how to fight he should be able to bring along a student to get him to that point where he can go up against anybody. the problem so few know how. theres to many politicians and dancers.l only now teach disciples if they dont want to do it the right way l send them away . but l dont teach for a living . my students that teach and members of our association are engineers, police ,army so on . and it does make it easier, but on the other hand l have people l know who teach as part of there living who dont give in to the almighty dollar, and have for years. to many beginners join a groupe without seeing the teacher do anything but has a good story and lots of paper on the wall. they need only one thats something from there style that show they are real the rest is window dressing. look at it like a used car . if you found a 1970s charger with a big block , fuel injected ,mags and slicks at a used car lot would you believe a little old lady drove it only on weekends to church? but go to clubs without any knowledge of the teacher his backgound or if his background is real .