Thanks for responding back towards me Bro, but I'm not in those clips. Unkotare - I'll stick to the topic like you stated! (Fu Pau check your inbox buddy - thats where our lil' individual discussion is taking place )
I have to agree that this guy might have some ability or as I like to call them, skills....but I just don't see it. He's not really using it in a practical manner. Yes, at a first level of training, we'll do things in a set up fashion, to get the right feel for it, but once the concept and the understanding is sewn together - then we apply resistance, forcefulness (attacks with power behind them), stuff like that to develop the practicality.
Maybe this guy was doing just a demo, it is possible he was doing it to show applications and concepts, but the students didn't need to fly backwards and around like they did to prove a point. Now if this guys is stating that this is his true internal ability, then yes I would have to agree that this guy is setting up a bad rep for the TCM community and is more than likely full of poop.
Thanks,
-Ngfamilydude
PS: Kinetsudragon - I was merely lucky
__________________
If you want something you have never had, You have to do something you have never done!
-Unknown
People who are REALLY touched using skills FOLD, like seen on many videos from the Ma family. They make funny movements, jerk, but you can see they are caught and don't act, it's like the jerks filmed on those accident video clips all move in a freakish, unpredictable way, and not just fall flat to the ground on their back, completely stretched with their hands militarily at their trousers.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Push hands has validity if one sees it for what it is: an exercise to develop sensitivity, awareness, and balance. There are different levels of the exercise that stress one or all of these facets. Learning these at a low level is a great way to teach students strengths & weaknesses in their stance, and how to observe, recognize and capitalize on an opponent's weaknesses.
”
Agreed!
__________________ I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.
PH is also an environment to train MOVES, just like the rolling on the ground. You're not only testing balance and the likes, but real concrete tactics, getting the skill to read the movements and react unwillingly to take balance and attack (punch/bar).
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Originally
Posted By: ngfamilymember
(Fu Pau check your inbox buddy - thats where our lil' individual discussion is taking place )
”
Done
Responded
Cheers
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
Originally
Posted By: Kinetsudragon
lol how about this video, how does your iron palm and fa jing measure up?
”
"towels and bricks don't fight back"
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You know, it sounds to me like maybe FuPau pushes hands with the taiji master shown in the video, did we strike a nerve talking about your sifu or something?
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No. I never met the man. If you actually knew anything about him you would know that he passed away many years ago.
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post one of our videos and have the gaul to say something about beginners doing forms, and then people smashing coconuts??
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So then the moral would be not to post videos about people you know absolutely nothing about and proceed to disparage them? A lesson in that for all of us I think?
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
Last edited by Fu-Pau; June 11th, 2007 at 12:45 AM.
Perhaps you should've read what the mods already said in this post earlier.. As I've said, the guy has human dummies doing push hands with him, I don't believe that was a realistic depiction of his skill leve, and I don't care if he's alive or dead, that video was BS.. Oh and no Mr. Lee, they don't hit back. Don't bash someone who's doing it while you're pushing people across the world with your amazing chi push hands..
Originally
Posted By: Kinetsudragon
Perhaps you should've read what the mods already said in this post earlier..
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I did. And your point was…?
“
As I've said, the guy has human dummies doing push hands with him, I don't believe that was a realistic depiction of his skill leve
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So you have said what you believe. Why do you assume that the video was intended to show a “depiction of his skill leve” – rather than an application of structure, timing and positioning? If you think that the intention was as you assume, then by logical transference the same could be said of every video on Youtube and this thread.
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and I don't care if he's alive or dead, that video was BS..
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Yet no other video on this thread was?
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Oh and no Mr. Lee, they don't hit back.
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Then why did you want me to watch it? What did you think I (or anyone for that matter) would get out of watching a man breaking “compliant” “non-resisting” bricks?
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Don't bash someone who's doing it while you're pushing people across the world with your amazing chi push hands..
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Doing what? I haven’t seen evidence of anyone doing much of note that warranted this post, let alone this thread yet?
[… and for the record I never claimed that the tai chi man was the “deadliest old man alive”. I simply pointed out that if you actually look at what he was doing – rather than obsessing about his students – you could see some technical application in what he was doing ...]
If you have a different POV on the technical aspects then articulate them in a way that shows some understanding rather than just posting “BS”
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
read my earlier posts rather than just sit and nitpick whats being said now. you've stated only the most obvious of things he was doing that EVERYONE with any MA knowledge who watched the video knows.. what his compliant students are doing is overly exaggerating what those things can do with that level of minimal effort. Now, please don't sit there and tell me he would actually move a resisting person that way with what he's doing.. if you say yes he would, then I'll leave this thread to never return because I don't want the ignorance to rub off on me.. I hear thats spreading like wildfire these days.
Originally
Posted By: Kinetsudragon
you've stated only the most obvious of things he was doing that EVERYONE with any MA knowledge who watched the video knows..
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Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated (because no one else was saying it).
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Now, please don't sit there and tell me he would actually move a resisting person that way with what he's doing..
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Did I tell you that? Where?
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
Why do you assume that the video was intended to show a “depiction of his skill leve†– rather than an application of structure, timing and positioning?
”
Well, let's think a minute...
If someone asked me to post a vid demonstrating "structure, timing and positioning" it would be indicative of my skill. I will only demonstrate what I can do, NOT what is theoretically plausible in some people's minds. That's dangerous and irresponsible. I can post videos of my fights and it will be a demonstration of my skill and also a demonstration of "structure, timing and positioning". They are one and the same, as they should be, as skill translates into structure, timing and positioning. If I was going to do a demo I would simply get one of my students and have a fight with him. I would not tell him to accomodate me or to fake anything. That's why KF has such a bad rap right now. People know when they are seeing BS....
Peace-
Cam
__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
Well, let's think a minute...
If someone asked me to post a vid demonstrating "structure, timing and positioning" it would be indicative of my skill. I will only demonstrate what I can do, NOT what is theoretically plausible in some people's minds. That's dangerous and irresponsible. I can post videos of my fights and it will be a demonstration of my skill and also a demonstration of "structure, timing and positioning". They are one and the same, as they should be, as skill translates into structure, timing and positioning. If I was going to do a demo I would simply get one of my students and have a fight with him. I would not tell him to accomodate me or to fake anything. That's why KF has such a bad rap right now. People know when they are seeing BS....
Peace-
Cam
”
For demonstration purposes, I don't disagree with splitting things out. In combat sports, you can say something like "Okay, why don't we see a demonstration of how much power a boxer can bring to a heavy bag" and then have him him hit the heavy bag. So he goes ahead and hits it. And we know for a fact that boxers do in fact hit heavy bags in training. And we can tell that his structure and power generation is good by the fact that the bag moves.
Does this mean he can fight? Absolutely not! In a fight, you can see some of the same thing, but it is ahh, easier to see it when you split it out with a session of hitting the heavy bag. I've seen plenty of people who have awesome sessions with the heavy bag and look GREAT and then utterly fall apart in a randomized scenario such as having a fight.
If we wanted to see this old guy fight, we would watch a video of him fighting. If we wanted to see him split out an example of 'structure and timing' then we see him do whatever he does. In a boxing match, we would see the same boxer exhibit the SAME structure and power generation as we see him use on the heavy bag, but we would also see so much more, so much more. If we saw this old guy fight, we'd see the same structure and timing as we see with his students, but as with the boxing, we would see a lot more things.
But, I, as ignorant as I am of any kind of internal concepts, have no idea whether this old guy's exhibiting proper structure and force redirection.
On the other hand, his students are totally faking it,come on. Reminds me of the yellow bamboo stuff, only there isn't some guy at the beach putting some fool into a single leg takedown this time around.
if we wanted to see this old guy fight, we would watch a video of him fighting. If we wanted to see him split out an example of 'structure and timing' then we see him do whatever he does.
”
No, we see him doing things to sompliant students. If the uke is completely compliant then proper structure and timing need not apply. The old man's structure and timing could suck and the compliant students make him look like has has good structure and timing.
In your example of power generation of a boxer the main missing variable is that the heavy bag is not compliant with the boxer. It will not fly across the room just because the boxer touches it. In turn that IS a good indication of power, and also structure which directly relates to power.
Peace-
Cam
__________________
Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."
It's just a bad demonstration of tech. Sorry if I was going to make a vid. or demo. then I would make it look as if for real. It's not just KF either I've seen this type of crap with other styles as well. Seen a Karate instuctor doing some Chi bull crap, and we've all had the dim mak debate. If your going to represent something don't half ass it.
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
No, we see him doing things to sompliant students. If the uke is completely compliant then proper structure and timing need not apply. The old man's structure and timing could suck and the compliant students make him look like has has good structure and timing.
”
I have no idea if he actually has good structure or not. There are several possibilities:
Compliant students falling down by being signalled where to fall by touch, and it actually is where they would fall if the technique being displayed was actually correct, and the technique is correct.
Compliant students falling wherever, regardless of whether the old guy was doing it right.
Compliant students falling down with a touch signal to where they are supposed to fall and the old dude didn't do it right.
Compliant students falling wherever, and the old dude didn't do it right.
Unfortunately, my experience betrays me here, as when I did push hands, people just didn't fall down like that. Either they would take a stumble, lose their balance, or fall in the direction they were pushing in. I have no idea how to make someone fall (other than by cheating) like these guys are doing.
“
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
In your example of power generation of a boxer the main missing variable is that the heavy bag is not compliant with the boxer. It will not fly across the room just because the boxer touches it. In turn that IS a good indication of power, and also structure which directly relates to power.
Peace-
Cam
”
There are different degrees of compliance, some of which is useful in training. Obviously, a guy doing whatever you need him to do is much more compliant than a punching bag. However, my example with the punching bag isn't really there to be compared with what the old guy's doing nor is it to validate what he's doing. I have no idea what he's doing, really. I only put in the boxing example as an example of training or showcasing specific aspects of fighting, which this old guy _may_ (I doubt it) be doing.
