Myth of the Deadly Old Man?

Over on Formosa Neija there's an excellent blog post on...

The Myth of the Deadly Old Man!

I found it very well conceived and written, and was wondering what my fellow DL'ers thought of the whole situation..

For my dollars, the only "Deadly Old Man" I know is this one right here...

He may have 30+ years on me, I still wouldn't want to roll with him in anything but a training session.

-hz

This is a great concept for a topic as I too have heard the multitude of stories about the deadly old men. The author has made some good points about compliant students, but one must remember that out of respect for their Sifu they would not take him out in front of anyone if ever at all... I will definetely add more once I see some more replies... should be interesting...

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"Zen is like riding a Tiger,
Later you become the Tiger."

They're good points. IMO compliant students are very inexperienced with martial arts in general (and I'm saying this as one who had little/no MA training when I started, either), PLUS they don't want to hurt their instructor, plus in a demonstration they are inclined to exaggerate even more to make their instructor look even better.

Those same students will argue that what they have learned by being pushed back against the wall is how to defend themselves. They have put on blinders and are not seeing what the real exercise is.

I was in the bookstore this evening looking for the latest book in a series. The series is mostly paperback with some hardcovers, I hate paying full price for hardcovers. So I passed by the hardcover section without even thinking, couldn't find the new book in the paperbacks. I had to ask the clerk who gave me a blank stare and just pointed at the giant "New Hardcovers" rack and there was the book, plain as day.

New students tend to do the same thing. Yes, they're being compliant but because they're investing money & time they don't want to admit it or see the flaws.

So much of TCMA has the "street performer" element in it -- chi gong demonstrations, breaking bricks, forms, lion dances, acrobatics -- and these are all great for building the body and/or picking up chicks, but are only one element of a process. Much of their purpose is to get new students in the door so the style stays alive. This demonstration is the same kind of thing, there's no fighting there, it's just to amaze the ignorant and get new students in the door.

What matter is, what is that master teaching his students when there is no demonstration going on? Is he telling them that the "act" is just an act, and teaching real application? Is he teaching them proper structure and balance, footwork and breathing? Or is he just running them through standing post and then throwing them around the room?

The essay makes 2 very important points: look for BS by observing & comparing your art with a disparate art, and don't try to be an exact copy of someone else -- be an original of yourself. In my own style I hear people every day: "Man, I wanna move like sigung, if I can get that low my kung fu will be really good!" I already know I won't ever move like my sigung. But I can take the material I have and make it work for me.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Wow.... that is exactly why KF gets bagged on so much. Helio Gracie is 95 years old and he would tool that guy so badly he wouldn't know what hit him.... or choked him, should I say...
And if we want to be really cruel, Dan Inosanto is around 65-70 years old... maybe they are around the same age... let's put them in a vale tudo fight.... My god, why do people put faith and stock in that stuff?

I have seen people do REAL push hands and yes it has validity and application in a fighting environment, but it looks NOTHING like anything in that video.

I would like to see Jay (Storm Mountain) or Chi Beast or Chi Beast's buddy Dmitri push hands with that guy.... That clip is an embarrasment to kung fu and Tai Chi.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"If you have a rabid jackal in a cage and then you set it loose and it tries to eat you, its not because you had it in a cage, its because it is a jackal." - Unk

“	Originally Posted By: hazmat For my dollars, the only "Deadly Old Man" I know is this one right	”

The only one I know, besides certain professionals, is my master.



Though I agree with what that article said, that is a common trend in TMA's to play that game and give your devotion to an elder who knows more and be compliant with his deadly techniques that really aren't, it's really a shame that people fall into that and don't question nor test the validity of such techniques.

Everything my master has shown me concerning techniques of any nature, I have always resisted and put up a good fight to make him prove that they work, guy hasn't failed yet, definitely something more people should do with their instructors, he has earned my utmost respect because he can do what he says and even more so when someone is actually fighting him actively.

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I AM the cowbell

Yes, the number of really "deadly" old men is very, very low. So what ? Noone is forced to train with such a person, or his students. BTW, even the young, energetic 20ish "masters" of Taijiquan schools here aren't any better, oftentimes.

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) ___ "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???"___ "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Wow.... that is exactly why KF gets bagged on so much.	”

The absolute truth!

What utter nonsense that is. I am ashamed that people train like that and try to convince others that it is a martial art. What is it that drives people to such utterly pointless delusion?

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"Liberty of conscience was born not of indifference, not of scepticism, not of mere open-mindedness but of faith." ~Plamenatz

I can only think of three deadly old men: Helio Gracie, Dan Inosanto, and Masaaki Hatsumi. However, now that I've gotten out of the booj, I think Hatsumi might be the only (or one of the only) decent fighters in the whole organization.

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"When you see a good move wait - look for a better one."
- Emanuel Lasker

Duncan Leung has taken away Dans sticks in a challenge ...

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) ___ "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???"___ "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

Hatsumi???

Just another old karate guy, really. There are plenty of those, and are all very knowledgable but I wouild't put him a seperate class.

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One hit, see blood.

How can you have any pudding if you dont eat your meat?

I have no idea if this guy is doing it for real, or if it's all his students playing nice. But the guy that comes on at the 2:00 mark, isn't making it all happen by himself. He's scared of what is going to happen - just look at his posture. Especially during the last throw, at 1:45, he's thinking he'll be thrown backward, leans back to anticipate, the throw doesn't come, he starts to shift his weight back forward and is immediately tossed. He had no idea where it was coming from and when it would happen.

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You must learn to balance a tack hammer on your head, so you can head off your foes with a balanced attack!

I'm not saying EVERYTHING that guys doing is fake, or real, but the video does nothing but make me want to push hands with him.. I'm by no means good, but I have pushed with some excellent people and they couldn't move me as effortlessly as this guy does every single time..

I agree, that kind of footage does give TCMA a bad name because they're all his students and you can clearly see them taking falls.. I was watching for the stuff drop360 was talking about, but look at 1:48, the guys legs buckle before the guy makes his push..

I believe the myth or legend whichever you call it could be true, but I don't believe any of the three men named are it.. Helio could be deadly without a doubt, but how old is he now?

Its very cool that this is being discussed... I would definitely agree that the story of the deadly old man is over rated. However there are some out there I am sure of it!!! Unfortunately the only way to truly know is touch them yourselves. not an easy or cheap way to go...
That being said who have been some of the highest level artists you have touched and their ages at the time? I think that most truly formidable masters are not way up in their 70's and 80's as they are really fighting a losing battle with father time by then, of course there will be exceptions. However many great masters are to be found in their 30's, 40's, 50's.... so who was it and how old were they? Why do you think they were so good (what did they do to you?)

I know one of the first on my list is Chen Zhonghua, he was in his early to mid 40's and was a real demonstration of structure, power and speed.

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"Zen is like riding a Tiger,
Later you become the Tiger."

Any time my sifu wanted some one to demonstate on I always raised my hand (he was @46 & the only person in KF I have had real contact with) because I needed to know what happened on the recieving end. I also always got yelled at for not slapping the ground on throws to help absorb the impact, but even that I did so I would know the full move from start to the power of the full impact.
That clip made me almost sick, it was very clear that these guys were taking a fall. Does this "master" have power, I wouldn't doupt it but in no way was he pushing these guys 3/4 the way across the room even before he touched them.(a few looked as if he never touched them and ohh there they go across the room.)

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Humility brings Understanding, Understanding brings Knowledge, Knowledge brings Wisdom,
Wisdom brings you Humility

I guess you need to know and understand what it is you are looking at.

Firstly it is simply a series of freestyle push hands drills. No one is pretending that what he is doing is what he would do (or anyone should do) if attacked by the proverbial mugger with a broken glass bottle. They are push hands exercises.

Secondly, and more fundamentally - don’t look at what the student is doing; look at why it is happening. In every single example (in the first clip) the cause of the student being repelled or falling is because the following things are all happening simultaneously:
(a) Master Huang, in making contact, is both “sung” (relaxed) and his structure and balance are both correct and uncompromised;
(b) Each time Master Huang issues energy (fa jing), he has already bridged and felt the student’s movement and caught the student in mid step or movement;
(c) He issues energy at the moment when the student’s structure is compromised and at the weakest point in balance.

The demonstration is demonstrating nothing more than an observance of structure and timing. Watch both Master Huang's and each student's feet at the moment of issueing.

Are his students going full out to kill him for the crowd’s (and later internet forum lurkers’) amusement? No, they know that he is demonstrating the benefits of correct posture and timing. In that sense they are being “compliant” in that they are not trying to sucker punch him or rugby tackle him and G&P him to prove that they know that there are other aspects to martial arts than those aspects that he is currently demonstrating.

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill