Adding a MMA curriculum to my traditional school.....

john100 · #16 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 10:16 AM

“	you should all come to Holland and see how the IBK honbu/ Team Hardcore dojo combines traditional and modern training	”

just thinking about it hurts. everything hurts. I have to do my practice and go to another class before the day is over.

on topic, aarida, I think it comes down to the intention behind the changes. Has your teacher seen something that got them excited and they had to get into? If so then it's probably worth sticking with the school. You might have to adapt a little to changes you wouldn't have chosen but you're going to be training for a long time to come, trying a slightly different atmosphere for a while is no big deal. You have a whole lifetime to train in a "traditional" atmosphere, give the new feel a try.

If, on the other hand, you think it's just about money, or ego, or focusing on young single guys with something to prove and turning them into fighters devil take the other students who pay the bills...(and this is aimed at some traditional kung fu schools in London, not MMA, before people get all defensive) then get out when you affordably can.

Sleeping Wolf · #17 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 11:17 AM

Well, I am sory to hear that your sifu is going more towards a mainstream view of Martial Arts. From the way you describe it, it seems like he is doing it to hop on the bandwagon. It is definately one thing to learn groundfighting(which is already in kung fu) by throwing in a MMA curriculum but it is another to start removing things that are representative of TCMA in order to atract an MMA crowd. Even the changing of the uniforms expresses that he is not wanting to include MMA into the overall curriculum but is saying that kung fu and MMA are separate as not to scare away the new clients.

If that is the case then I am sorry for you. I can only assume that your sifu is needing money or (if he is not)he is being greedy(no offense).

My sifu went thru a similar experience when he started a kickboxing class(my sifu used to do JKD so he studied different types of kickboxing for a while). It was a way to make some more money by catering to the current trend but in the end, all he wanted to teach was traditional kung fu. The kickboxing class ended after only a few mths. He stated that while he enjoyed the extra revenue, it was not something he wanted to focus on. I can only hope that your sifu is as passionate for CMA as mine is. If so, then the MMA class will probably fade out. He may still keep some of the curiculum but the school should resume the way it has been. If not, then perhaps he was only interested in the money.

Anyway, I hope you find the place that's right for you. Good Luck!

aaradia · #18 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 04:20 PM

hmmm, I seem to have made it all sound a little more urgent than it is.

Except for the cheesy windows and web site (i.e. advertising) nothing has changed yet. The new curriculum has not been introduced yet and won't be for a few months.

I am not on the verge of leaving soon. Any decision would be a long ways down the road.

But I wanted to hear from those that have gone through it, so that I have an idea of what to expect, what to not worry about, and what would be warning signs to tell me I might need to go elsewhere. You all have given me some excellent things to think about towards this end. And I hope to still hear from others. It has been comrforting and informative.

I mostly trust my Sifu when he says the core of the school's training and atmosphere won't change. So far, he has always been an honorable, nice, and honest person. I think things will work out in the end. On the other hand, I also am not one to blindly follow a Sifu- just because he is a Sifu. So, as someone here advised, I am hoping for the best, but keeping my eyes open and preparing if it comes to needing to change.

Thanks all,
-aaradia

Unkotare · #19 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 06:42 PM

“	Originally Posted By: Sleeping Wolf It is definately one thing to learn groundfighting(which is already in kung fu)!	”

Uh-oh, that's a whole other kettle of fish...

Sleeping Wolf · #20 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 07:26 PM

True. And that is why I didn't really go into it. With those types of debate we tend to lose focus on what we were originally discussing.

Lugaldamhara · #21 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 07:37 PM

“	It is definately one thing to learn groundfighting(which is already in kung fu)	”

You owe it to yourself to go to a BJJ school and take a few classes.

This topic is getting important. Just this week I saw some disturbing things. Two traditional schools (karate) in my hometown closed down because they could no longer pay the bills. The school in my hometown where I teach was sold by the owner to another guy because it wasn't making any money. The new owner is supposed to be a great marketing guy so hopefully he can turn it around.

What I am seeing is a large percentage of students leaving and going to MMA schools. In turn, the traditional schools are trying to offer MMA programs to keep the students but most of these MMA programs at these traditional schools are McDojo MMA... and the students can see through that. It's like a last ditch effort to keep student clientele. These students are going to the bigger MMA gyms where there are cages, rings, etc. and the atmosphere like they are seeing on the TV. Traditional schools aren't offering that unless they completely change over to an MMA school.

This is affecting me personally because I may be without a place to teach and train in my hometown soon, and that sux because I may be fighting in January.

Hopefully this is just a fad and is built upon the popularity of MMA at the moment. It may or may not die out over time but the fact right now is that there is a huge exodus from traditional schools toward MMA based training and the traditional schools are suffering from it and trying to adapt. I knew MMA was going to make an impact but I never thought it would be this bad. I personally hope this is a passing fad because I don't want to sell out and change the way I do things...

Good luck, Aaradia, with whatever happens at your school.

aaradia · #22 (**permalink**) November 10th, 2007, 10:08 PM

This is the weird thing Cam.

My school is NOT suffering and the students have not been leaving in droves. It is steadily growing in students in the time I have been there. Furthermore, the rate of students sticking around also seems higher, not lower. I base this on the percentage of students achieving higher sash levels v.s. the amount I saw when at first in the school. There is a drop out rate in beginning students, but that has always been so.

I belong to the oldest location (over 20 years), they are adding an 8th location soon. (They could grow at a faster rate, but refuse to add faster than they can supply quality instruction. They don't just call someone a Sifu to open a new school, there is a criteria to become a Sifu. The same goes for the other instructors, they have a certain level of qualifications they must reach to be an instructor.)

San Diego seems to be very MA friendly. A Chan family CLF school opened up here a couple of years ago. They are traditional and still around. I see MA studios all over San Diego of every type - a new MMA school opened up several blocks from my work, I have co-workers who's kids take TKD, I can think of 2 karate schools, a Judo school, another KF school and 2 Tai Chi places right off the top of my head.

I have overheard enough conversations (happens when you hang out a lot at your school) to get a good idea Sifu is in good financial health.

So, I took no offense at your saying so sleeping wolf, maybe it is greed. I do know there is a genuine enthusiasm amongst some of the instructors, that it is just they are genuinely exited about studying, and teaching this addition-like John said.

Maybe it has nothing to do with Sifu, but our Tai-Sifu and founder of the schools. It puzzles me.

aaradia

p.s. Sorry to hear about your location woes Cam. I had thought you owned your own facility. Can't you find a MMA school to teach out of? Or would they make you teach their system, not praxis?

Lugaldamhara · #23 (**permalink**) November 11th, 2007, 12:35 AM

Aaradia, wasn't saying that that was what was happening at your school, only that I am seeing it happen at a lot of places and especially in my own back yard.

I have never owned my own school... never made enough money to justify the expense. I don't want to teach out of a regular MMA school because most all of them are compartmentalized in their way of thinking (meaning a BJJ class in the morning, a wrestling class early afternoon and a Muay Thai class in the evening) and are not very open to traditional ways of thinking. Because of things that have happened over the course of the past 18 months or so I have been considering retiring from the game altogether.

Sleeping Wolf · #24 (**permalink**) November 11th, 2007, 02:39 AM

Please forgive my ignorance but what is Praxis? Is it a more advanced version of MMA? If so, then why arent other MMA guys doing it?

Lugaldamhara · #25 (**permalink**) November 11th, 2007, 02:52 AM

Praxis is the system that I teach. It's an ecclectic hybrid martial art that is built from the most basic and high percentage principles found in wrestling, striking and submission grappling. It's a coherent system that is structured around all the principles working in harmony with each other from range to range as opposed to the common MMA way of training of compartmentalized disciplines which often see many principles in direct opposition to one another. The system was founded and pieced together over years of trial and error by my striking instructor as well as myself and a few others from many different backgrounds in martial arts.

Is it more advanced? Personally, I think it is but then again, that's why I train that way. Technically, it's not really better or worse, just a different approach. Why aren't other MMA guys doing it? There are a few prominent MMA schools that train in that philosophy (the non compartmentalized way). So in essence, many are doing it, they just may call it something different and may not be teaching it structured exactly as our system is, but the principles remain the same.

The main difference you may find between the Praxis system and the many non compartmentalized MMA systems is that Praxis utilizes a lot of things found in more traditional disciplines while the others tend to stick to the strict MMA = Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling mentality. While Praxis does borrow heavily from the primary 4 MMA disciplines we also borrow from many more outside that paradigm.

Hope that helps.

Sleeping Wolf · #26 (**permalink**) November 11th, 2007, 03:55 PM

It does, thanks!

aaradia · #27 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2007, 01:35 AM

[quote]

“	Originally Posted By: mok Aaradia - I have little to add except that using separate uniforms to distinguish between the type of students sounds counter-productive to me. If you would want to encourage students to cross-train, wouldn't they be better served by all wearing the same thing?	”

You have an excellent point Mok! This is an interesting thing to ponder. I will have to pay attention to how the multiple uniforms affect interactions between the students and so forth. I really do think that clothing can have a psychological effect.

I must admit I was only thinking selfishly (and in a trivial way) about the uniforms. It just so happens that a fellow student and I were watching (having finished our events) the Plumblossom tournament and noticed the traditional uniforms that some other schools had. We both talked about how it would be neat to have this for tournaments and tests at least. Then, at dinner that weekend, we first heard about the new curriculum and the uniforms. I just like the traditional look of it.

Also, I overheat easily and am always rolling up the sleeves of our uniform T-shirt (which we are not supposed to do.) So, the idea of a shirt without sleeves has MUCH appeal to me. So, having my choice (being both a Kung Fu and Tai Chi student) I probably won't wear the long sleeved Tai-Chi uniform much.

-aaradia

aaradia · #28 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2007, 01:53 AM

“	Hopefully this is just a fad and is built upon the popularity of MMA at the moment. It may or may not die out over time but the fact right now is that there is a huge exodus from traditional schools toward MMA based training and the traditional schools are suffering from it and trying to adapt. I knew MMA was going to make an impact but I never thought it would be this bad. I personally hope this is a passing fad	”

Speaking in general about the overall picture, I think it is a fad and the pendulum will swing back some and there will be a balance. At least I hope so!

My school has MANY more Kung Fu students than Tai Chi ones. When I first started the Tai Chi Curriculm, I was the only new student for close to a year (at least that went to group classes regularly). I talked to a long standing advanced student and she reminisced to when there were a LOT more Tai Chi students- Tai Chi was the fad. Then there was a general agreement that the current fad was now Yoga and that a lot of those that used to do (or would have joined) Tai Chi were now doing yoga. And its true- a lot of new yoga places have sprung up in S.D. And you do see yoga in magazines and videos in great abundance nowadays. But it is cycling back now. We have had an increase of Tai Chi students the last year.

-aaradia

Lugaldamhara · #29 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2007, 03:16 AM

“	My school has MANY more Kung Fu students than Tai Chi ones.	”

Aaradia, this has me confused. Can you explain how your school differentiates between "Tai Chi" and "Kung Fu"...?

I have always been of the understanding that "kung fu" was a general term that translated into "skill attained through hard work" so that meant it could really apply to any field of endeavor, not just martial arts.

Taking that into consideration, Tai Chi would be "kung fu" but kung fu would not necessarily be Tai Chi... like all Mustangs are Fords but not all Fords are Mustangs...

So I guess what I am asking is... What specific CMA style does your school label as "kung fu"? Why do they differentiate it from Tai Chi?

Thanks!

aaradia · #30 (**permalink**) November 12th, 2007, 03:29 AM

[quote]

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Aaradia, this has me confused. Can you explain how your school differentiates between "Tai Chi" and "Kung Fu"...? I have always been of the understanding that "kung fu" was a general term that translated into "skill attained through hard work" so that meant it could really apply to any field of endeavor, not just martial arts. (snipped) So I guess what I am asking is... What specific CMA style does your school label as "kung fu"? Why do they differentiate it from Tai Chi?	”

Sorry, you are absolutely correct and that is indeed what my school teaches also.

I should have used CLF (Choy Li Fut) instead of KF in my post. That is the external form of Kung Fu taught. Yang style Tai Chi is the internal form taught.

It is my sloppy writing, that has you confused. My bad! Come to think of it, I often do use the term Kung Fu for CLF and then call Tai Chi by its own name even though I know better. I really do need to be more precise when it comes to this.

-aaradia