Adding a MMA curriculum to my traditional school.....

(Can I start off by requesting that MMA vs TMA comments be directed to the myriad of threads elsewhere? That is not what this thread is about, even though both are being discussed here. Thanks!)

So, my school is now in the process of adding a MMA curriculum and I am having mixed feelings about it. I joined a Traditional school and I don't want the atmosphere to change. Sifu has said it won't, that the teaching will stay the same. If that is true- all will be ok, but I am worried.

On the plus side, they are adding more equipment that we all can use. More bags and so forth. And (this is not importand but cool) They will change the school uniforms to several uniforms based on what you are studying. So, instead of T-shirts the Kung-Fu students will have the sleeveless cotton southern style shirts, the Tai-Chi students will have a long-sleeved traditional Kung-Fu shirt, and the MMA students will have a t-shirt.

I have nothing against MMA, or really our school adding a curriculum, we have had submission grappling classes for a couple of years now. I like watching MMA and I like that our students have always been encouraged to join MMA, San-da, etc. tournaments to test their skills.

But I joined a Traditional Martial Arts school. That is what I searched for and that is what I paid for. The web site and marketing now seems to be de-emphasizing the Traditional part of our school, which has been something they have proudly emphasized in the past. It used to say "San Diego's largest and oldest Traditional Martial Arts school" now they took the word Traditional out of that phrase! I don't understand why they did that!?

And they changed the front of our school. It used to have a row of traditional weapons- they took them ALL out! It is replaced by images that seem to emphasize the Grappling/ MMA aspect more than the Kung-Fu and Tai-Chi. You would not know it is a traditional school by looking at the front of it now. It looks cheesy and commercialized and rather -well- jumping on the bandwagon-ish.

It isn't the adding so much as the de-emphasis on what has made the school successful and grow for the last 20+ years. The schools are not lacking for profits or students, so I don't understand why they are jumping on this bandwagon. They are adding an 8th location soon. The school has more students than ever. And honestly, I don't think it will work. San Diego has City Boxing and now a new MMA school by Brandon Vera. I really think those interested in MMA will go to those schools/gyms. We don't have boxing rings and the like and I just don't think we can compete with what a MMA person would find in the MMA gyms.

Sifu has said the atmosphere will still be traditional, and that the MMA curriculum people will still have to follow the traditional attitudes in the school (the addressing by last name, the bowing, etc.) and I hope that is true. I guess I have to hope that the teaching stays the same and the only difference is the cheezy marketing. But if the atmosphere and teaching goes the way of the advertising, I will be looking for a different school I guess. (We do have several other traditional CLF schools. including a Chan Family CLF school, so I guess I do have options I should be grateful for.)

Someone told my instructor about my unhappiness with the front of the school, but she confided in me that honestly, she agrees with me and has the same concerns. I have overheard other instructors saying they think the current marketing will possibly scare away what has been their core of students. So, it is controversial and I know I am not alone. So I guess I have to wait and see.

So, have any of you gone through changes in your school that have made you change schools? Or have you had concerns that ended up ok? Have any of you traditionalists had your school add a MMA curriculum? How did it go?

-aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

aaradia,



I've been through what you're going through, kind off. I have an old sifu that I respected a lot, because he never gave in to that hype and marketing. But as time went on he began to change slowly, not so much into MMA, but the type of marketing and hype that wasn't what brought those of us at the school to the school. As this began to happen he started teaching less and less of the classes and even started letting noobs teach classes people with maybe a few months to a yr.

I noticed that it did bring in more students but these were not the long term students we use to have but more like a lot more passing thru students. I hope that doesn't happen with your school because it totally changed my old school and sifu. At the sametime, if your sifu is oldschool like my current sifu? It could mean your sifu is just going to deal a lot more with the martial aspect of the style and move away from a lot of the other trappings.

That could be both good and bad as well. If you like all the Lion Dance and other stuff as well as the martial, it could be a problem when a school shifts more to one side than the other. I myself love the martial aspect, we don't train any lion dance or much of the other stuff most schools do. Our training looks like a MMA gym and nothing like a kung fu kwoon. Sifu is the type that he only worries about forms, if you're planning on teaching otherwise, it's all about fighting prowess.

That doesn't mean we don't learn forms, but the majority of our time is spent on application drills and actual fighting skills.

jeff

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History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

Not changes like this.. Some things evolve while others stay the same. From what I have seen my Sifu is starting to revert back to some of his old ways as far as training goes. One thing I can say that has changed in my time has been the traditional training methods. We're using stone spheres, padlocks, plum flower posts, and other things of the sort. Combining some of the old with the new too using circuits, and kettlebells(not new).

My Sifu thinks that having a knowledge of grappling and practicing it is important, but I doubt you'll see our school putting an MMA front on just to gain business or money. That is one thing I enjoy about our family, I haven't seen any of them in it for the money or fame, just high quality TMA..

Aaradia, you are probably correct in the assumption that most anyone interested in MMA will go to the other MMA gyms in the area. There are now two different demographics of MMA crowds developing. Most anyone that is serious about MMA competition will go to a real fight gym and not to a traditional school that has an MMA curriculum. Being turned off by TMA is what attracts most people to MMA so to them bowing and using traditional titles is going to be a complete turn off.

A lot of traditional schools are now doing this to cash in on the popularity. There is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, both the schools where I teach have those programs in place and it's also the way I like to do things as opposed to the hardcore formula of MMA= BJJ, MT, wrestling and boxing because I would rather stick to my more traditional roots. What you will also see is a disparity between the personalities of the people that will train at your school as opposed to the ones who choose going to the hardcore type fight gyms. I think you will be more comfortable at your school.

Other than the de-emphasis of the traditional trappings and marketing I think the only difference you will really see is that there will be new people with more ideas. I think if you stick it out you will only benefit from it. I do have one question, though... Who is the instructor bringing in to teach the MMA classes and what is this person's experience?

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	quote=Jeff C.;314612aaradia,But as time went on he began to change slowly, not so much into MMA, but the type of marketing and hype that wasn't what brought those of us at the school to the school.	”

That is EXACTLY it! That is my current complaint! I wish I had an old picture of my school front and a new one to show you guys. But maybe I am too focused on a trivial thing - I dunno.

“	As this began to happen he started teaching less and less of the classes and even started letting noobs teach classes people with maybe a few months to a yr.	”

And that is my fear, but I guess I will have to wait and see - or trust Sifu with his assurances the curriculum and quality will not be changed.

“	I noticed that it did bring in more students but these were not the long term students we use to have but more like a lot more passing thru students. I hope that doesn't happen with your school because it totally changed my old school and sifu.	”

Yeah, my concern isn't the passing through aspect but that their is a different atmosphere with MMA and TMA. Neither is more correct than the other, but I chose a school based on what is right for ME and what I wanted in a school. I don't want to see that change.

“	At the sametime, if your sifu is oldschool like my current sifu? It could mean your sifu is just going to deal a lot more with the martial aspect of the style and move away from a lot of the other trappings.	”

I feel my school has always been pretty good about emphasizing the martial aspect, but some of us LIKE the trappings as long as the martial aspect isn't ignored.

“	That could be both good and bad as well. If you like all the Lion Dance and other stuff as well as the martial, it could be a problem when a school shifts more to one side than the other.	”

Primarily, Lion dancing is done at one of our locations. Anyone interested is free to go to that location to get involved. The instructors at other locations know lion dance, but it is taught only at the one school.

“	That doesn't mean we don't learn forms, but the majority of our time is spent on application drills and actual fighting skills.	”

We learn a mix, we do have a lot of forms. And I like that. We also focus on actual fighting too, sparring, applications etc.

-thanks
aaradia

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

Who is the instructor bringing in to teach the MMA classes and what is this person's experience?

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: aaradia Yeah, my concern isn't the passing through aspect but that their is a different atmosphere with MMA and TMA. Neither is more correct than the other, but I chose a school based on what is right for ME and what I wanted in a school. I don't want to see that change.	”

You know, conturary to what you see on martial arts forums, many MMA people are very very cool. I've met many and "ALL" of those i've met at their respected gyms, were so cool and down to earth, even the hardcore fighter types. They usually walk right up to you introduce themselves and ask if you've done any martial arts before. I've not had one person look down on or treat me in any negative manner to date, when I mentioned I did CMA.

Most replied "oh really, what style?" that was usually met by "cool" or "i've never heard of that style." Then you'd be surprised to see how many actually have a TMA background.

Actually, most of the arseholes on forums are kids and noobs to MMA.

When Cam hooked me up with Charles and the guys at Florida Freestyle Academy, those guys were the coolest to date, I really wished I could've trained with them.



jeff

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History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

“	There are now two different demographics of MMA crowds developing.	”

Can you elaborate on this please? It might help me figure out if they are going to market to one or both of these crowds.

“	Most anyone that is serious about MMA competition will go to a real fight gym and not to a traditional school that has an MMA curriculum......(edit) so to them bowing and using traditional titles is going to be a complete turn off	”

Yeah, that confirms what I already thought. Especially since City Boxing has a good reputation. At least I think it does.

“	What you will also see is a disparity between the personalities of the people that will train at your school as opposed to the ones who choose going to the hardcore type fight gyms.	”

That is comforting. Mind you I am not saying one is right and the other wrong, nor that one is better than the other. But we choose the school that fits what we want and I picked and paid for one that is a certain way with a certain atmosphere that is right for what I want.

“	Other than the de-emphasis of the traditional trappings and marketing I think the only difference you will really see is that there will be new people with more ideas. I think if you stick it out you will only benefit from it.	”

I am ok with that and hope you are right. That is why I did not mind the addition of submission grappling. I just don't want the core of my school to change-that's all.

“	I do have one question, though... Who is the instructor bringing in to teach the MMA classes and what is this person's experience?	”

I don't know any more than I have told you. I will tell you when it rolls out. This has not happened yet. It is several months away. What little I know is that there will be three separate curriculums. Students may study any or all of them. Like I am a Kung fu AND Tai-Chi student. Most students are only one or the other.

This is one of the things I think that really bothers me. They are advertising my school in this manner BEFORE they have even rolled out the new curriculum. I think they are still developing it. I find that weird. Like, if they do attract a new student who wants to study the MMA curriculum, are they just going to give them a rain check?

-aaradia

__________________
I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

Hey Aarida!

I'm going through almost an identical problem at my school. I've been meaning to vent about it on here for some time, so now seems like a good time

About a month ago the head instructor at my school wanted to break with our parent school and alter our curriculum. Initially I was really excited by the changes, but after a month of "transition phase", I'm impatient and bored with class. On one hand I still have a lot of loyalty to my head instructor, but on the other hand, I feel like I'm wasting time in class and slowly becoming a worse fighter.

(now Aaradia, back to you) I think you owe it to your school (and yourself by extension) to give the new system a shot. It entirely possible that the things that have you worried are total non-issues. I think what you've got to decide though, is just how much are you going to take. The transition at my school has depressed the hell out of me and is threatening to ruin something I really liked....so my best advice is hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. The good news is that during a time of change, most instructors are really open to suggestions/constructive criticism so if you don't like something you've got a good window to try change it.

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2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

Aaradia - I have little to add except that using separate uniforms to distinguish between the type of students sounds counter-productive to me.

If you would want to encourage students to cross-train, wouldn't they be better served by all wearing the same thing? Also, sounds to me like the t-shirt is the way to go if you want to roll (we'll hold on the speedo and baby oil for now ) so why bother "introducing" new fancy uniforms instead of sticking with the old t-shirts?

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What is the sound of one hand clawing? -- chanh buddhist proverb

“	Our training looks like a MMA gym and nothing like a kung fu kwoon. Sifu is the type that he only worries about forms, if you're planning on teaching otherwise, it's all about fighting prowess. That doesn't mean we don't learn forms, but the majority of our time is spent on application drills and actual fighting skills.	”

Ahem. Jeff, would you care to rephrase this? How about: "Our training looks nothing like a MODERN kwoon". I wonder sometimes if most people today (I know you do) have any idea what a traditional, old-world kwoon was actually like. In my opinion, forms were always a minor aspect of a good, traditional kwoon. The majority of the time was spent of the twin pillars of kung fu: force training and application.

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Anthony Korahais
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I took what Jeff said as meaning they had a cage, a ring, a few MT bananna bags, some thai pads and focus mitts, some treadmills, elliptical machines, sauna... that's what an MMA gym looks like... Is that not what he meant? I don't think I have ever seen a traditional KF kwoon that looked like that...

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Hmmm, I don't see why it's important to classify really at all.. If it could be completely modern I'm sure our school would look more like both a modren MMA facility and a traditional kwoon..

I know as soon as our flooring is finished in our new place we're going to have freeweights, kettlebells, padlocks, spheres, heavybags, mats, etc.. No sauna or ellipticals, but if we had the money I could see things like that being possible. Oh and we have thai pads, focus mits etc as well..

Some "traditional" kwoons therefore have iron bar kickdummies, posts wrapped with rope, truck tyres for kick training, heavy bags, wall bags and wooden boards for hitting practice, wooden men, and use heavy weapons, poles and the own body for the strength practice instead. I'd say that NOONE from that high tech halls has the punching strength at a comparable weight of a 55 years old friend here who uses nothing but long poles and heavy bowling balls for practices. BTW, that s*cker does forms too.

I don't think on the other side that adding a groundfighting and continuous sparring MMA style schedule to that "traditional" training hurts anyone. It should add to realistic behaviour in a fight context, that does not look so incredibly inept like those guys doing nothing but artificial "defenses" or "counters" and an attempt at something resembling a kickbox lookalike. That MMA-like practice was an integral part of old fighting practice that got more or less lost in the times of everyone and his brother going "gongfoo teechaaa" without ever having undergone such a fighting practice education.


AGAIN, I suppose that "MMA training" should mean, learning to defend and go with a sparring/fighting that contains competent fighters with some conditioning go for takedowns and various leg/arm/choke submissions and while attacking also using kicks and punches, with WHATEVER works on that. Wether it has to be imported or has been found in the original curriculum. Not "yeah, now old stupid learns REALLY fighting - MUAY THAI !!!! 1337!!!".

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you should all come to Holland and see how the IBK honbu/ Team Hardcore dojo combines traditional and modern training

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all hail Martyr Fakka