Formaility and discipline in kung fu: what is typical?

Stuff like that can make a person sputter.

I've often felt that schools that give "calisthenics tests" just don't have a lot of material to teach but have to make it seem like a test anyhow. How else would they keep collecting the testing fees? OTOH I can understand if a sifu wants his students to get and stay fit.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I like the idea of calisthenics in a martial test however it should be a very small amount compared to the rest of the test.

sifu chuck : "OMG...I am posting like Pope Wingnut"

that can only be a good thing

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: Green_Horn I like the idea of calisthenics in a martial test however it should be a very small amount compared to the rest of the test.	”

I don't, for a few reasons.

1. Why would I pay someone money to watch me do pushups & situps? What I'm paying for in a test is to have my skills reviewed and to receive constructive criticism from the most experienced person (or persons) in the school.

2. One's level of conditioning should be made apparent during the test. If you're in a forms-based school you should be able to do the forms at your level without getting exhausted. If your test has a fighting element you should be able to fight for the required time without getting gassed.

3. Skill & understanding should be what's tested. Conditioning should be a byproduct of your training. Conditioning exercises should supplement your training. But it shouldn't take precedent over what really needs to be tested.

4. Why does a sifu have to find out how conditioned you are on your test? Shouldn't he know that you have the proper conditioning? What does that say about him?

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I think that calisthenics/conditioning exercises is a good thing to be done on testing for higher ranks. Not so much as to find out what kind of shape the student is in but for the mental aspect, to see how badly they want that next belt/sash. To see how far they will go to reach that goal. Thats what my teacher did with his students but it in no way was more important than the actual martial material (kicks, punches, forms, self defense tech., et....). My black sash test was pure hell. I had to run 4 miles, do push ups, situps, hold a ma bu for a long period of time, do a handstand against a wall with a bucket of water balanced on my feet (and told if I drop the bucket I fail), do more push ups, do more sit ups, break a concrete patio tile, do my forms (all five different animal forms, long fist form, braodsword form, staff form, whip chain form, gung li chuan), do my self defense techniques, demonstrate different stances, demonstrate all the different kicks, demonstrate all the different hand strikes (tiger claw, backfist, spear hand, etc....) and then sparr my teacher and 3 other student. But the who endurance thing in the beggining of the test was to test my mental state of mind, to see if I had what it takes to be a black sash. My black sash test took about 5 hours.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

i get where you comming from sammy

but there is something to be said for stress testing

by exhusting somebody

you will usually see what is in long term muscle memory and what is not

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

The Grand High Pope is correct.

The problem comes from people who don't understand what they are doing, and are just doing it because they did it that way. This is a prevelant issue in the martial arts, as very few people take the time to peel away the layers and try to figure out why they are doing things the way they are doing them. This board is fortunate in that the vast majority of posters are seeking questions to ask, answers to those questions, and more questions.

A martial arts test isn't just about technique. Technique is the superficial layer teachers use an excuse to test spirit and willpower. A teacher knows very well whether a student can perform a technique, but he doesn't know much beyond that. All those jumping jacks and calisthenics are there to drain the body of energy. From there, when the brain is scrounging to find Carbs in the body to digest for energy, thinking dulls and slows. Then you start seeing natural reactions and "no mind" thinking.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

I do see where your coming from sammy I just think that the same can be said about a persons ability to preform techniques and forms. Before a person tests you almost always know that a person can preform said techniques its under stress and exhaustion you see what there true ability lies. Of course I also believe for higher belts a gods awful lot of techniques, applications drills, and sparring should be doing to asses a persons skill. So I think a lot should go into it to begin with. Plus I think some calistentics can be a great warm up along with a way to pre-exhaust you for a test.

I can understand the argument but I think testing calisthenics is a waste of time. The material and/or the fighting element should wear you out.

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon The problem comes from people who don't understand what they are doing, and are just doing it because they did it that way.	”

This.

Instructors who fill up advanced-level tests with calisthenics are just trying to justify the cost of the test. The test material should be enough to wear you out, if it isn't then your instructor either doesn't have the knowledge or there isn't much material in the system. Situps, pushups, jogging and jumping jacks are just filler.

Is 100 pushups all it takes to prove that you're dedicated enough to be a black sash? A nice jog? In that case any reasonably-in-shape schmuck off the street can test at the black sash level.

Every single day of training is a test, or should be considered that way.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Every single day of training is a test, or should be considered that way.	”

I have to agree with this right here.

sammy : "Every single day of training is a test, or should be considered that way."

very well put

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"...any theory that satisfies the facts demands assumptions which are completely absurd."

Aleister Crowley

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl The test material should be enough to wear you out, if it isn't then your instructor either doesn't have the knowledge or there isn't much material in the system.	”

Not unless the goal is to bring the body to fatigue prior to performing the material.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: Pope_Wingnut sifu chuck : "OMG...I am posting like Pope Wingnut" that can only be a good thing	”

Your blessing is appreciated your Holiness.

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

“	Originally Posted By: WraithAlcon Not unless the goal is to bring the body to fatigue prior to performing the material.	”

I think that should be done during training, on a regular basis (not every day but at least 1 class a week) because it certainly is extremely challenging to perform well when you're past the usual threshold. The goal of that kind of training is to help people perform better overall by helping them push past limits.

But I don't think it's a good part of an upper-level test.

Here's some examples from outside the MA world:

1. A pole vaulter is usually required to run, lift weights, and do all sorts of other calisthenics to prepare his body to do pole vaulting. But his test (the competition) is to pole vault. Not run 4 miles or stand on his head.

2. The Army PT test (which actually is a calisthenics test) is conducted when soldiers are rested and fresh. They don't do anything other than the required test material. On training days one might do much more than the required test material but the test is about a specific set of skills.

As an aside, a soldier's career often rests on the results of this test -- which is not dissimilar to a martial artist's (potential) career resting on the results of his/her blackbelt test.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I'm with SG...
Even when i teach, the material itself should be the workout. Calisthenics and the like are for development in areas of weakness and recovery from injury.

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"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel