Formaility and discipline in kung fu: what is typical?

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl I think that should be done during training, on a regular basis (not every day but at least 1 class a week) because it certainly is extremely challenging to perform well when you're past the usual threshold. The goal of that kind of training is to help people perform better overall by helping them push past limits. But I don't think it's a good part of an upper-level test. Here's some examples from outside the MA world: 1. A pole vaulter is usually required to run, lift weights, and do all sorts of other calisthenics to prepare his body to do pole vaulting. But his test (the competition) is to pole vault. Not run 4 miles or stand on his head. 2. The Army PT test (which actually is a calisthenics test) is conducted when soldiers are rested and fresh. They don't do anything other than the required test material. On training days one might do much more than the required test material but the test is about a specific set of skills. As an aside, a soldier's career often rests on the results of this test -- which is not dissimilar to a martial artist's (potential) career resting on the results of his/her blackbelt test.	”

I will concede that there are different ways to go about testing, and the method you describe does hold value in certain settings.

However, I believe that taxing the body prior to performing provides a better avenue of testing. I have been the victim of extremely short tests as well as extremely long tests. When I tested for 4th Rank, the test took 9.5 hours or so with a few 5-minute breaks inbetween. That test destroyed my body as well as everyone else there. But near the end when we started sparring, we got to see who had an understanding of the material when their brains had shut down. My 5th rank test was completely different and only took 3 hours (1 hour of which being in the Horse). It was a 1-on-1 test where we flowed from each drill/form/chin na after doing it for about a minute.

Both of these methods tired me out, but I don't think both tested me in the same way. That is why I say that if you are going to do things a certain way, you need to understand why you are doing them that way. If you just want to test technique, you can keep the student fresh for every drill. If you want to test performance under fatigue then you first have to fatigue the body.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

Testing should be for a purpose. Although testing has some benefits, imo, it has a lot more drawbacks to it.

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

the way we always test is to break down the person, stress them out, and then see how they perform. say that if you can perform at the test you should be able to perform it on the street. our test get longer the higher in rank you go, advanced tests are 2 days, 3-4 hours friday then 3-6 on saturday.

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"Holy bat farts"
"Just remember there's many kinds of toughness in this world and not all of them involve kicking in someone's teeth to prove a point." SammyGirl Fan Club

Do you find value in that testing process?

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

yeah I do. like I said I feel that if I can fight and perform after going through all that I can do it when it counts. plus I feel like after going through a test like that the students value the rank more and more ofa feeling of accomplishment

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"Holy bat farts"
"Just remember there's many kinds of toughness in this world and not all of them involve kicking in someone's teeth to prove a point." SammyGirl Fan Club

That is really the main thing isn't it? If the testing process is valuable to the person who participates in it then that says a lot.

I'm in the middle when it comes to testing. I know as an educator that people like, and need, benchmarks to measure their learning by. When those benchmarks are created, they are usually taught to and individual student need is ignored. In education we call it a mere meremorization of facts that does really is of no value in the long run. However, it is easier to test questions that require just mere memorization. Teaching someone, and assessing a concept or principle, at an individual's independent level, is a very time consuming, entailed, endeavor.

This is how I test my students in the martial arts. Don't get me wrong, I do expect certain curriculum to be retained, but that curriculum is NOT the soul of the test. Informal assessment of student need and skill levels should be on-going.

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

“	Originally Posted By: Sifu Chuck Kennedy Testing should be for a purpose. Although testing has some benefits, imo, it has a lot more drawbacks to it.	”

without testing how do you determine if the student should get his next belt/sash? Do you just observe them while they are taking class?

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

“	Originally Posted By: Jade_Dragon_03 without testing how do you determine if the student should get his next belt/sash? Do you just observe them while they are taking class?	”

Well...I don't give sashes or belts. Those are modern inventions used, by many, as a commercial tool. I have the benefit of teaching all of my classes so I get to teach and observe them all. You can't have a "One-Size, fits all" mentality to testing. That type of mentality creates a somewhat exclusive student base.

For instance, I have a 70 year old man who comes to train. I can't put him through the same rigors as the others. I can expect him to push himself within the realm of his own limitations and as a result improve his abilities.

I take that mentality and apply it my students. I touch hands with all of them. I work with all of them. I teach them 4 days a week. I assess them all the time and give them suggestions for improvement. I teach how I was taught. As a result I have some well trained individuals that lack the ego that pervades a lot of martial arts schools.

Like I mentioned previously, I understand that there is a need for the promotion system. Many people need to have these benchmarks laid out so that they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think for many practitioners this becomes an issue. That is why I see so many Black Belts disappear when they get their black belts because their focus has been on the belt and not on the art. They no longer know what to work for because, now, they have reached the end. Nothing else was instilled but a curriculum, coupled with physical endurance tests, and sprinkled with whatever else makes them unique to the rest.

One of the ways that I honor a student's dedication to training is by giving them a certificate of completion for the different aspects of the Fut Sao system that they have learned. However, I make it very clear that it is not for the purpose of rank, but for the purpose of them being able to see the scope and sequence of the training so that they get involved in their own progress. It is only a recognition of curriculum that they have covered, not in any way mastered. That takes a life time.

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

After years of learning and mastering do you give your students a black belt?

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

Why does a black belt matter?

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Like I said, I don't give out belts or sashes.

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I am the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity - Igor Stravinsky

Sammy...''2. The Army PT test (which actually is a calisthenics test) is conducted when soldiers are rested and fresh. They don't do anything other than the required test material. On training days one might do much more than the required test material but the test is about a specific set of skills"


And all it is is an endurence calisthenics test.

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Every single day of training is a test, or should be considered that way.	”

Sammy still pushing logic I see.

Can't agree more. I can see how these test are geared...... "dude, you'll need to do 1000 pushups, 1000 situps, then your grading will begin"..... what you don't see are the people talking about this the day before. "They won't even make it past warmups.... let's get that money." But that's just my opinion.

As for me, my "test" lasted for 6 years before I got promoted to a different level. I was tested each and everyday of those 6 years.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	Originally Posted By: Green_Horn Sammy...''2. The Army PT test (which actually is a calisthenics test) is conducted when soldiers are rested and fresh. They don't do anything other than the required test material. On training days one might do much more than the required test material but the test is about a specific set of skills" And all it is is an endurence calisthenics test.	”

Yup, and it's just that material.

Of course the Army tests anything and everything. If they can't figure out something for you to do they sling a test your way. What's interesting is military-style testing also brings out the negative side of "just test what's necessary." Many tests are about doing "A, B and C" when "D, E and F" are perfectly fine alternatives and would show initiative and/or quick thinking on the soldier's part -- however, if the soldier uses options D, E or F he fails the test.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Why does a black belt matter?	”

Well, once you get envolved in martial arts for a little while you realize it doesn't matter but to a newbie it means everything. Thats what most people shoot for when they first get into martial arts, thats what my goal started out to be before I got really envolved. So to be able to make a go of it teaching I think that it is important to have some type of way to mark ones progression. If I were new to martial arts and I went to a school that didn't have a belt/sash system or even a black belt then I probably would not join that school.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage