Formaility and discipline in kung fu: what is typical?

Hi all, I am new here.

I used to train at a kung fu school that taught north shaolin and some animal styles and which was an incredibly disciplined and formal place. I am now starting to wonder if that was typical of CMA or not.

Here are some of the characteristics of the school. I would be very grateful if you could comment on how normal or abnormal this was for kung fu.

1) The school was a branch of a bigger organisation. All the branches had the same syllabus, the same grading structure and the same way of decorating the kwoons. (They were all painted green, with pillars being painted red. There was an altar at the front of each kwoon.)

2) There were separate classes for different levels. Beginners did not train with intermediate students or advanced students. A new beginners class would start every few months, and once you joined that class, you were with that group forever. The whole class would do gradings together and would pass or fail together.

3) There was a high level of secrecy. Junior students were not even allowed to watch advanced students training.

4) Grades were considered extremely important and were designated by the colour of the sash and/or T-shirt. Testings were a HUGE deal and extremely hard and would inspire fear for months leading up to it!

5) The syllabus and techniques you learned were linked to your grade.

6) Classes were very formal and regimented. Everyone in the class did the same thing, and there was an instructor at the front of the class who would run the class.

There was never any of this business where people would all work on different things with the instructor drifting in and out among people. Also, students were never left to do things on their own.

7) Gradings were horrendously tough physically. You had to be able to do a set number of pushups and other exercises for each level. If you couldn't do them you failed! At higher levels, you had to have sticks broken over your abdomen and other kinds of tests.

8) Seniors had to be greeted by their title and juniors were not allowed to call them by first names in the school.

9) Uniforms were very important. Everyone wore black trousers, white socks and black kung fu shoes. The T-shirts had the same design for everyone, but the colours would change depending on the grade.

It would be unimaginable to show up for class without a uniform and without it being cleaned and ironed.

10) The school was also very important. None of the branches in the organisation trained in a church hall or a YMCA or a park. They all had fulltime studios with traditional decor.

The training area was marked off with a black line and I remember that no-one was allowed to walk across a black line. Also, no-one was allowed to touch the altar at the front of the room except the teacher.

I know I am probably painting a nightmare picture of some boot camp here, but I actually loved it and so did the people who trained there.

We all bought into the discipline and the structure. The gruelling gradings and classes bonded us like a family. In fact, the whole structure of the system and the grades was almost as important as what we were learning.

But now I am wondering if this is really how CMA training is generally done?
Virtually none of the schools I have looked at since then seems to follow this model. They are all much more casual and relatively unstructured. Everyone seems to train together, with no distinction between juniors and seniors.

Was the school I went to more representative of the way a Japanese art is taught? Even worse, was it a cult?

hey there dude, gotta say, it sounds a little bit too regimented. I study kung fu as well, and most good kung fu instructors will hold you back a little, so you don't try to run before you can walk so to speak. My school has a traditional teaching system, where you are classed as an " outdoor student " for the first six years, but everyone trains together.sure, the more advanced guys go off to practise their forms once everyone has run through the basic warm up and conditioning forms together, but we are all in the same room. In fact it is encouraged at my school, because the more advanced students have no qualms with pointing the newbies, and less advanced students in the right direction if the are making mistakes with forms ( ie correctig their footwork or stances ) no offence, but how else are you to learn from your errors? I agree that certain things, everyone should go through together like the warm up and conditioning drills, but you won't be able to execute forms that you haven't been taught to execute correctly, if you have someone that has been there six months or so, and they are getting to grips with it, they can't be expected to execute the same forms as someone who has been there two years. I do think that it is right that the more advanced students should be given the space to practise their own forms;and in a way what your school does kinda makes sense, because some over zealous students may try to copy the more advanced stuff before they have mastered the fundamentals properly, which will harm their progress in the long run. what I will say is if you enjoy it, and you are getting what you need from your training, then it doesn't really matter what anyone else says. train hard, and enjoy yourself

thanks for the quick reply!

“	Originally Posted By: gavster_22 In fact it is encouraged at my school, because the more advanced students have no qualms with pointing the newbies, and less advanced students in the right direction if the are making mistakes with forms ( ie correctig their footwork or stances ) no offence, but how else are you to learn from your errors?	”

The mistakes were corrected by the instructor and the assistant instructor if there was one.

I also forgot to mention that not all the classes were taught by the same person. The school was open 5 days a week and there were classes from 5:30 pm to 9:30 pm. Each class lasted an hour. However, people would only train twice a week because the time slots were for a specific group.

For example I started out training Monday and Wednesday from 5:30 to 6:30. As I got more and more senior, my class times would change to make room for a new beginners class.

Beginners classes were taught by a senior student and not by the main branch instructor. The main guy would generally teach only the most senior classes, so there were probably about 10 or so instructors in the school.

okay, that makes sense, its the same sort of thing, in most traditional kung fu schools, you have the indoor/ outdoor students, and you never learn directly from the sifu himself. not until you become an indoor student. thats a typical shaolin teaching system from what I can gather. it is designed to make sure the students all learn at their own pace, and gives them the sense of real acheivement when they advance. the belt/ sash sytem is not really that important though. as you will probably know, there are some truly magnificent blackbelts etc.. out there, but then again there are some really terrible ones. the belt does not really show the students abilities. we don't have a grading system, as my sifu beleives that sashes and belts are only good for holding your pants up. he believes that it gives a false representation of the students progress as they beleive that they are better than they may actually be.

Every school is different. Some people thrive on such a strictly regimented system, others do much better in a more relaxed environment.

My school has a certain level of regimentation and strictness (not quite as regimented as what you described but we have uniforms, gradings, some general school rules, and it's part of a larger organization). But believe it or not there have been people who could not handle how "relaxed" we were! One new student was super-nervous around everybody and finally admitted that she didn't know who was her senior so she could bow to them ... she apparently had to bow to every senior student at her old school on entering, leaving, and when addressed, which to me is odd, time-consuming and a little cultish ... and she was terrified that she was going to get yelled at or something. We all wear black sashes so she couldn't tell.

Anyway -- what you're describing is pretty much a typical commercial school, whether kung fu, karate, TKD, etc. Some really get into the whole "militarization" idea where rank is more important than skill and hazing is preferable to teaching. I don't approve of that idea, and it sounds like you're pretty turned off by it, too.

The downside of going to a more "relaxed" school (they're not really more relaxed, just different focus) is that you are generally on your own in terms of maintaining fitness and honing your skills, because no drill instructor is standing over you forcing out those pushups. But that's not really a downside, if you're learning skills in class and then learning how to maintain them on your own, which IMO is far more important than getting a black belt.

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"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I have to agree with sammy, though I disagree with a few of those rules you posted about the school. Separate class are need for beginner and advanced but that doesnt mean they should be kept completely separate and isolated. How else are you going to learn any real skill? You have to get your butt kicked ever so often by someone at a higher level so you can strive to over come them. In our school it is farely relaxed with the beginner, intermediate, and advanced students starting together. After a while the groups break up to do there own forms. All application drills, drills, etc are done together (if you don't know a technique ask, or watch till you get it) beginner and intermediate class ends after an hour, advanced goes on for another hour after that. Testing should be very demanding physically and mentally so I agree with that but I dont think any emphasis should be placed on testing. My Sifu places a little more emphasis them I would like on us testing....specifically me. I dodge it for nearly a month before I tested (which wsa in first half of Feb) now wants to test me again.I personally hate testing. As it does give a false sense of accomplishment.

False sense of accomplishment after passing a test depends on some factors. If the attitude of the instructors is "you have to test because, I don't know, you have to test," and if there are a lot of tests -- like one every couple of months, and if you feel like all you're doing is preparing for the next test, AND you don't feel a sense of accomplishment -- maybe that school focuses too much on tests.

Then again, at the beginner levels students are often simply tested to make sure they have learned the basic movements they need, and to reassure the instructor (especially in a school with a lot of students) that all beginners are meeting these requirements. The test may not require much demonstration beyond the basic skill and so a student may not feel he's been through much of a trial. This will likely change as you progress upward and are asked to demonstrate much deeper understanding of the techniques you've learned.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

I think my school is a pretty formal CMA school. Let's see what it compares like to yours.

“	1) The school was a branch of a bigger organisation. All the branches had the same syllabus, the same grading structure and the same way of decorating the kwoons. (They were all painted green, with pillars being painted red. There was an altar at the front of each kwoon.)	”

Yeah, same syllabus and grading structure. The schools are not all decorated exactly the same, but pretty similarly.

“	2) There were separate classes for different levels. Beginners did not train with intermediate students or advanced students. A new beginners class would start every few months, and once you joined that class, you were with that group forever. The whole class would do gradings together and would pass or fail together.	”

We have a whole bunch of different classes. Our group classes are for all levels, there are some particular sash level classes too. There is also an intermediate level class open to all but the very beginning students. Sparring is all levels mixed together. (I should mention everone has a private lesson once a week too.)
The classes are open to anyone coming in at anytime. You are not restricted to being with a certain group. Sash tests are individual, with occasional tests of a couple of people at a time. This is usually when several advanced students have been going through a formatting class together for a few months and are ready at the same time to test. But taking a formatting class together does not mean you will necessarily test together, as you may not be ready when the others are.

“	3) There was a high level of secrecy. Junior students were not even allowed to watch advanced students training.	”

Sorry, to me that is weird and I would not like to train in that environment. Our school is open most days from 11am to 9pm for people to come in and train whenever they are open. You will see people in the big room training, including instructors in their off time-even Sifu on occasion. The only thing is you are not supposed to watch too much, but it is more a politness thing than anything else. Giving people the space to work out without being watched too much. Plus, if you are there, you really should be working out yourself!

“	4) Grades were considered extremely important and were designated by the colour of the sash and/or T-shirt. Testings were a HUGE deal and extremely hard and would inspire fear for months leading up to it!	”

Sash tests are important, but we are also taught not to rely too heavily on the idea of having a particular sash level. We are not taught to fear testing, but to rise to the challenge and learn to do our MA under pressure or stress or whatever.

“	5) The syllabus and techniques you learned were linked to your grade.	”

Yes- with our sash level. Each level has a particular curriculum.

“	6) Classes were very formal and regimented. Everyone in the class did the same thing, and there was an instructor at the front of the class who would run the class.	”

Yeah, someone who runs the class and everyone does the same thing.

“	There was never any of this business where people would all work on different things with the instructor drifting in and out among people. Also, students were never left to do things on their own.	”

As I said before, we can come in and workout any time. The insctuctors not teaching are there to answer questions if you need it. We also have our private lesson and insctructor to work on our own personal things.

“	7) Gradings were horrendously tough physically. You had to be able to do a set number of pushups and other exercises for each level. If you couldn't do them you failed! At higher levels, you had to have sticks broken over your abdomen and other kinds of tests.	”

They get tougher the more you move up. No callisthetics, they test endurance by grouping forms together so that you do multiple forms all together. So endurance and fitness is tested within a specific MA framework. We do break boards at one level, but no having sticks broken over you. I am curious what that proves with regards to martial skill-what am I missing here?

“	8) Seniors had to be greeted by their title and juniors were not allowed to call them by first names in the school.	”

In our school, EVERYONE greets EVERYONE by Mr or Ms or MRS and then their last name. (Except Sifu is called Sifu.) That is all levels, and adults to kids and vise versa. We do it to show respect to all around us. We also bow to each other. Tecnically, lower sash levels bow first to higher ranking students, but really, people just bow to each other in greeting-whomever sees the other first.
Students are definitely supposed to bow first to the insctructors.

“	9) Uniforms were very important. Everyone wore black trousers, white socks and black kung fu shoes. The T-shirts had the same design for everyone, but the colours would change depending on the grade.	”

Uniform T-shirt, black pants, and your sash. Shoes and socks not monitored.

“	It would be unimaginable to show up for class without a uniform and without it being cleaned and ironed.	”

Clean yes, ironed- only before a test. Really, how uncool to your other students to show up in dirty smelly clothes?

“	10) The school was also very important. None of the branches in the organisation trained in a church hall or a YMCA or a park. They all had fulltime studios with traditional decor.	”

Yes

“	The training area was marked off with a black line and I remember that no-one was allowed to walk across a black line. Also, no-one was allowed to touch the altar at the front of the room except the teacher.	”

We are supposed to bow with our feet half on the edge of the training mats upon entering and leaving. We are also supposed to bow to the pictures of our past masters upon entering the school and leaving it. Again, to show respect.

“	I know I am probably painting a nightmare picture of some boot camp here, but I actually loved it and so did the people who trained there.	”

Naw, some like a formal structure and some don't. Fortunately there are enough schools out there to find what you like.

“	Was the school I went to more representative of the way a Japanese art is taught? Even worse, was it a cult?	”

A cult? do they make you separate from your outside social life? Ask you to give over all your money? stuff like that is what makes a cult.

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I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

i think its crazy not mixing ability in at least the beginners class

senior students IMO should be put in with beginners

thats the best way for information to get exchanged

and it works both ways

so much can be learnt from beginers in a system

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It sounds like a McDojo to me and a pretty strict one at that. It almost reminds me of a Shaolin Do school. The school you describe is not your typical Chines kung fu school I don't think. At my school we would all warm up together and then do some kicks and punches together. After that we would partner up with someone about the same skill level and practice our self defense techniques with each other. As we would do this my teacher would walk around to each group to see if we were doing things right and he would usually show a new technique to each group. From there we would either sparr or we would all sit against the wall and he would call us up one at a time to do a form that he wanted us to perform. When we would get to the point that we didn't know any more of the form he would show the next couple moves in the form. He would do this with each person. After every one was done he would have us go practice the form and what he had just shown them. He would walk around and observe to see if we had anyquestions or needed any help. Something that was always fun was when we would go to tournaments. Everyone that was going to go to the tournament would meet at the school and then we would take maybe two or three cars and pile in them and go. If it was close we would leave early that morning, stop and eat breakfast at Mickey Dee's, and then head on. After the tournament we would ALWAYS find the nearest Chinese restaurant and go eat. My teacher would always go with us students (and it was students of all sash ranks). If the tourney was far away we would leave the night before and drive straight through and then get a room at some roach motel (but it didn't matter because we always had fun) near the tourney. We did bow in at the biggining of class and say a student creed. We also bowed out at the end of class. We had to address the teacher as Mr. or Sifu. We had to address all adults as Mr or Mrs.. When answering an adult we had to say yes sir or no sir. Other than that it was pretty informal. Oh yeah, we did have uniforms.

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Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

I dont think its a mcdojo just a lil militant. Personally I got enough of that in basic.

There's so much variety within CMA that it's hard to make rules for what is and isn't typical. I can only speak for what I saw in the northern plains in the late 90's, a lot of which may be specific to that time and place. A good rule of thumb is that the Shaw Brothers did NOT make documentaries. Use common sense.

I can't speak for outside of China, but in China, things weren't really like that in most cases.

Most places in China don't get terribly warm winters, so training is outdoors. Rural Chinese don't have a lot of extra money & resources, so dedicating a building explicitly to practicing martial arts is out of the question. The only totally indoor kung fu schools I saw were for provincial-level competition wushu & wrestling teams. Lower-level competition schools usually shared space in middle schools or gymnasiums. In rural areas where there was more space, some teaching was done in back yards. Parks or any other open space were often used.

In rural areas, a teacher would often hold a ceremony to prepare an area spiritually for practice. I went to a couple of these. Most counties have a number of ritual specialists. They seemed to be mostly Daoist, but it's often hard to tell where one religion stops and the next starts in the north. In both cases, the specialist wasn't a full-time monk or priest. Although the area wasn't only for martial arts, they were the biggest group to use it on a full-time basis. The area would be used for public festivals, but kung fu demonstrations are usually a major part of these festivals, mixed in with dancing, drumming, commerce, etc. Martial practice also gave the area some kind of spiritual benefit for other activities.

Uniforms were for demonstrations/competitions only. They're expensive. I trained in China for two years & never saw anyone practice in a kung fu outfit. In the cities some people wore the traditional baggy pants for practice, but sweats or army-surplus pants were far more common. They're cheap & easy to wash. Not everyone can afford dry cleaning & washing machines.

It's pretty normal for advanced students to teach beginners, though. I taught some of the newer foreigners, for example.

All in all, the operation sounds more like something copied from different HK kung fu films. Which could make it typical of western CMA schools. Of course, I know very little about Fujian martial art schools, so maybe white crane is more like what's described here.

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Wow. That's a strict school.

Doesn't sound like a cult since they didn't try to affect other aspects of your life outside your art.

Strict. Wow.

We don't do stuff like that. Beginners and intermediate and advanced students are mixed into class, but the only stuff they do together are the basics of basics, the stretching, calisthenics, the iron body stuff. Then the people work on whatever they're working on separately or coaching the beginners. Back when we had our own building, everyone was allowed to watch the intermediate and advanced classes. And why not? There are no big secrets after all.

In the world of youtube, closed door training is an anachronism.

IMO a lot of U.S. martial art schools, whether CMA or otherwise, model themselves after JMA class structure. Back in the late 60s/early 70s this is what most Americans thought martial arts was about, and kung fu teachers catering to new clients gave them what they wanted.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a strict structure and rules to a MA class. The larger the school, the more strict and "uniform" a class needs to be in order to maintain order and make sure students learn at a steady pace.

However, not everyone likes that structure and it's not for them. And that is also perfectly fine -- there are still TCMA instructors out there who teach in a much more relaxed style, who teach in their backyards, who don't require uniforms, etc.

If you're unhappy with the way a school teaches, that doesn't make it a bad school or a cult. It's just not your style.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Commercialism and the fine line of true teaching.

Curriculum over student need

Belts for Bucks

Mystery by secrecy

Physical over-taxing that leads to brainwashed fealty.

OMG...I am posting like Pope Wingnut

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