When is a martial art not a martial art ?

Recent posts have got me thinking

I would argue that modern Wu Shu is not a martial art. It was not created to teach self defence but to prevent people learning self defence.

Old chairman Mau was always deeply suspicious of traditional martial arts (and rightly so given their long association with revolutionarily activity). The cultural revolution showed how brutal the communists could be but it also showed how subtle they could be to. E.g. the introduction of new script and the phasing out of the old ones meant that over time fewer and fewer people could read the Chinese classics as they where written.

Mau would have liked to ban martial arts altogether but traditional arts had been banned before and survived underground. His solution was not to ban martial arts but to poison the wells it came from. Through the state encouraging a performance sport that apes the moves of the art without the core understanding to make those moves effective. It would become harder and harder for people to tell the difference between the real and the fake. Over time practitioners of the real arts would be lost amongst a sea of meaningless rubbish.

Which is pretty much what is happening. Wu Shu is a deliberate attack on martial arts. But the same thing is happening across all arts. Whether its sport Karate or relaxation Tie chi. The real fighting arts are the minority of what’s out there.

So when is a martial art not a martial art and how can you tell the difference ?

Any "fighting" art is a Martial Art.
And I will argue against you; Modern day Wushu is a fighting art/Martial Art.
It might not be the most practical, but it could still beat a moderately trained person, depending on the art.

About 20% of martial arts these days aren't completely practical, but they ALL started as 'Martial', Self defense arts. But since it's popularity in the '20s and '30s, it has evolved into something that it wasn't intended to be. Don't get me wrong, there might be a few arts out there who haven't been altered dramatically, but the majority have.
However, I will argue that 85% of people with 3+ years of MA training could beat an untrained fighter. Something's better than nothing.

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Modern WuShu is not a martial art in my opinion, it's acrobatics and moves to make you look like you can fight.

Now what is one stance that almost every style of WuShu has? Ma Bu, Horse Stance. How can you tell whether a martial artisted was trained to fight or trained to look like they can fight? Check their horse stance. If there hips are tucked underneath them and the strain seems to be on the Quads, they were trained to fight. if there butt pokes out and their knees have strain and after awhile are shakin, trained to look like they can fight. it the little things that scream out to me when looking at a modern WuShu practioner and a Traditional WuShu practioner.

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"How can you tell whether a martial artisted was trained to fight or trained to look like they can fight? Check their horse stance. "

I don't use a horse stance, I havn't done that for years, but I can fight

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Ditto.
You tell me how a horse stance is going to save your ass in a fight.

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“	When is a martial art not a martial art ?	”

The simple answer....

When it isn't applied in a martial context.

Most martial arts are not really martial arts but are performance arts, like dancing and acting. They are seldom or never applied martially and therefore have lost their martial intent.

This is why most performance based martrial arts always fall short when applied in a martial context against sport based martial arts. Sport based martial arts (boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ, judo, Muay Thai, etc...) are all consistently applied martially.

When performance based martial arts are applied continuously over time they tend to transform. They start gravitating more toward practical applications and less toward the theoretical. We can see a very good example of this when we view the history of San Shou. San Shou is a sport, not really a style (much like modern day MMA). It started out as a practical venue in which to utilize and apply traditional Chinese martial arts styles.

Now, if we look at the multitude of Chinese martial arts styles we see an abundance of performance based systems that have fallen victim to not being applied martially in many, many years. We see forms and patterns that appear superfluous and pointless, while all the same time being visually appealing. It's when this focus on visual appeal overrides practical application that a style becomes useless and no longer "martial".

As stated, San Shou was a competition based sport that was open to many styles of Chinese martial arts... Shaolin, Tai Chi, Bagua, Choy Lay Fut, Five Animal, Xingyi, you name it... Interestingly enough, when the participants started competing in these sport competitions over a period of time, the representatives of these myriad martial systems started to all look the same. The embellishments and unique traits of all these individual martial arts started to disappear and the application of the techniques and principles employed by the competitors started to resemble (GASP!) Muay Thai.... At first the lines between individual styles started to blur and over time there surfaced a small lexicon of applied principles and techniques that were practically applied at a high percentage rate of success.

“	And I will argue against you; Modern day Wushu is a fighting art/Martial Art.	”

I disagree. Until it is used consistently and successfully by a large contingency of representatives within a controlled environment specifically designed to test the application of the principles involved in the system, then it isn't going to be considered a viable "fighting" or martial art.

“	About 20% of martial arts these days aren't completely practical,	”

I am willing to bet the number is much higher than 20%....

“	I will argue that 85% of people with 3+ years of MA training could beat an untrained fighter. Something's better than nothing.	”

And I also bet that that number is a lot lower... but that depends on what you consider "untrained".

“	Modern WuShu is not a martial art in my opinion, it's acrobatics and moves to make you look like you can fight.	”

To what demographic would anyone doing that stuff appear to be able to fight? The physical skill and dexterity along with all the other attribites is commendable, but no one I know equates that with being able to fight. To people who really know how to fight that kind of display is no indication of applicable fighting skill.

“	How can you tell whether a martial artisted was trained to fight or trained to look like they can fight? Check their horse stance...	”

You can't be serious.....

Bottom line...
There are principles that need to be mastered in order to be aplied in a martial context. Many arts contain these. Many do not. Many contain them but hide them within a plethora of superfluous nonsense so that it takes a practitioner years to understand them. Then there are arts and styles that do not underestimate the aptitude of the practitioner and get right to the heart of the matter.

Again, martial arts is the only art form that is accepted as viable without the practitioner ever having to apply their art. One can never fight and be considered a martial artist. I have no idea why that is (well, yes I do, but that's another can of worms) but no one I know considers anyone who never fought to be a "martial artist".

No one has ever been considered a visual artist without ever presenting something visual. The crux in the initial question lies in understanding what the term martial actually means.

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"Raise up your mind....."

When I started Kung Fu properly, all I did for the first year was Horse Stance ( with the arms stretched out in front ), footwork, and leg stretching. It was certainly developing strength in my legs ( I would say more tendon strength than muscle strength. ).

Now I favour the higher stances ( when it comes to low I prefer the Filipino approach ). I prefer to move around on my feet like a Kickboxer does, than remain moving in deeply rooted stances.

It is interesting though, because when I was doing Kung Fu I thought the boxing stance was not balanced or rooted enough, and wasted energy. Now I feel the complete opposite.

“	When is a martial art not a martial art ?	”

“	Modern wushu is composed of two disciplines: taolu (套路; forms) and sanda (散打; sparring) [2]. Taolu forms are similar to gymnastics and involve martial art patterns and maneuvers for which competitors are judged and given points according to specific rules. The forms comprise basic movements (stances, kicks, punches, balances, jumps, sweeps and throws) based on aggregate categories traditional Chinese martial art style and can be changed for competitions to highlight one's strengths. Competitive forms have time limits that can range from 1 minute, 20 seconds for the some external styles to over five minutes for internal styles. Modern wushu competitors are increasingly training in aerial techniques such as 540 and 720 degree jumps and kicks to add more difficulty and style to their forms.[3] Sanda (sometimes called sanshou or Lei Tai) is a modern fighting method and sport influenced by both traditional Chinese boxing, Chinese wrestling methods called Shuai Chiao and other Chinese grappling techniques such as Qin Na. It has all the combat aspects of wushu. Sanda appears much like kickboxing or Muay Thai, but includes many more grappling techniques. Sanda fighting competitions are often held alongside taolu or form competitions.	”

I would say that Wushu is a Martial Art ( although technically, like Boxing, it is a sport by definition ) as long as you train Sanda. I may not like Wushu very much, but if they are contact sparring then it is MA. Someone who just does the forms and not the Sanda, can not be called a Martial Artist. I would then rather say Performing Artist and Athlete. Interestingly though, there is way more influence in Sanda ( when it comes to techniques ) from the old Red Army techniques than from the Wushu forms.

I am yet to see a Sanda match where the fighters moved around in low horse stances and such. They move a lot more like Kickboxers than traditional Kung Fu students.

I think Doughboy's post put an exclamation point on many of the points I made in my prior post. Thumbs Up!!

“	I prefer to move around on my feet like a Kickboxer does, than remain moving in deeply rooted stances. It is interesting though, because when I was doing Kung Fu I thought the boxing stance was not balanced or rooted enough, and wasted energy. Now I feel the complete opposite.	”

“	Someone who just does the forms and not the Sanda, can not be called a Martial Artist.	”

“	Interestingly though, there is way more influence in Sanda ( when it comes to techniques ) from the old Red Army techniques than from the Wushu forms.	”

“	I am yet to see a Sanda match where the fighters moved around in low horse stances and such. They move a lot more like Kickboxers than traditional Kung Fu students.	”

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Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Seh Any "fighting" art is a Martial Art. And I will argue against you; Modern day Wushu is a fighting art/Martial Art. It might not be the most practical, but it could still beat a moderately trained person, depending on the art. About 20% of martial arts these days aren't completely practical, but they ALL started as 'Martial', Self defense arts. But since it's popularity in the '20s and '30s, it has evolved into something that it wasn't intended to be. Don't get me wrong, there might be a few arts out there who haven't been altered dramatically, but the majority have. However, I will argue that 85% of people with 3+ years of MA training could beat an untrained fighter. Something's better than nothing.	”

Where do you come up with your facts? Where did you get this 20% stuff at?

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

A martial art is not a martial art when it no longer serves the purpose of self defense or has no combat application to it. As for wu shu not being a martial art, that just isn't so. There are numerous martial art techniques and moves in wu shu. There's the front kick, side kick, reverse punch, elbow strike, knee stike, etc... within wu shu. The question is does a wu shu practitioner know how to and when to use these techniques or does he just know how to string them together to make a beautifully choreographed form for show. Thats the question.

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Mark
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“	Originally Posted By: Jade_Dragon_03 A martial art is not a martial art when it no longer serves the purpose of self defense or has no combat application to it. As for wu shu not being a martial art, that just isn't so. There are numerous martial art techniques and moves in wu shu. There's the front kick, side kick, reverse punch, elbow strike, knee stike, etc... within wu shu. The question is does a wu shu practitioner know how to and when to use these techniques or does he just know how to string them together to make a beautifully choreographed form for show. Thats the question.	”

Good post. I see too many martial artists who do forms and have no idea what they are actually doing. So instead of working a martial application, or doing their forms with the proper intent, they are just doing a dance. Your forms and fighting should not be seperate.

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I wouldn't say that the people starting in Sanda looked like bad or off-the-shelf kickboxing because that is inevitable when "really fighting". Only that a punch to the head usually needs to look about the same if fired from the same position as there are only n ways of generating power to a certain point from a certain starting location. I saw a Mantis guy doing a good Mantis setup and hitting kickboxers at will staggering them every time because he was FAST enough, ATHLETIC enough and PRECISE enough to do it. He just trained like he had to, to get that attributes. Of course his punch looked exactly like a short hook from boxing, but done from a Mantis setup, crouching low. Many people in Sanda just train exactly those "usual Sanda techniques" WITHOUT any traditional exercises as a foundation. The "trainers" training people to appear in Sanda events also often only claimed a shipload of "styles" but in fact didn't have any foundation, so all they trained their fighters to do was cheesy sidekicks and an attempt at faking a boxing straight. Or they were kindly "asked" to train this and that exact stuff because the people who had the power to "ask" saw that somewhere and insisted. That was a reason a traditional teacher (Duncan Leung) who formed a successful full-contact team with some of his men starting in K-1 after just about a good year of practice had to step back from that team and give up. Some of the chinese Sanda fighters were solid, when they had a good teacher, but most are plain garbage. Bodily strong from endless and mindless "hard" training, but without even the most basic understanding of tactics, poor balanced, without knowledge and feeling on how to set up, counter, move, etc. That's BECAUSE their trainers never ever trained traditional setups, counters, combinations, grappling setups, not "despite". But just because they fancy chinese names for stuff, it isn't better than what a _good_ boxer does. Old styles in combat looked much like certain boxing styles. The "western" mindset usually makes for more technical, success oriented considerations in training, not that much "who's the most important - who can tell whom what to do - what is the image of so and so" and the likes. People in the last century made up too much crap on how some "stylish" things have to look like to be "traditional", when my own punches look like boxing ones of a certain style. The success of "Wing Chun style" punching overshadowed that many other traditional styles share a lot of similarities with big mens boxing because they came from an area where the people where bigger than the flimsy toothpicks of certain coast areas.

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“	There are numerous martial art techniques and moves in wu shu. There's the front kick, side kick, reverse punch, elbow strike, knee stike, etc...	”

Line dancing contains kicks so by your logic line dancing is a martial art...

Baseball teaches people how to swing a bat really hard and it could be used for self defense purposes... so again, by your logic, baseball is a martial art...

Even doing a form with intent is not practical application and is not martial.

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Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Bob1 Recent posts have got me thinking I would argue that modern Wu Shu is not a martial art. It was not created to teach self defence but to prevent people learning self defence. Old chairman Mau was always deeply suspicious of traditional martial arts (and rightly so given their long association with revolutionarily activity). The cultural revolution showed how brutal the communists could be but it also showed how subtle they could be to. E.g. the introduction of new script and the phasing out of the old ones meant that over time fewer and fewer people could read the Chinese classics as they where written. Mau would have liked to ban martial arts altogether but traditional arts had been banned before and survived underground. His solution was not to ban martial arts but to poison the wells it came from. Through the state encouraging a performance sport that apes the moves of the art without the core understanding to make those moves effective. It would become harder and harder for people to tell the difference between the real and the fake. Over time practitioners of the real arts would be lost amongst a sea of meaningless rubbish. Which is pretty much what is happening. Wu Shu is a deliberate attack on martial arts. But the same thing is happening across all arts. Whether its sport Karate or relaxation Tie chi. The real fighting arts are the minority of what’s out there. So when is a martial art not a martial art and how can you tell the difference ?	”

I hate to break up a good bout of commie-bashing, but the standardized competition wushu is a republican-era invention. It pre-dated Chairman Mao by a good couple of decades.

I've only learned the simplified characters, but I can read the classics. Classical Chinese is a lot simpler than modern chinese. There's only a little over two thousand characters in the classics, and most of these have the same form in all forms of contemporary Chinese.

While I agree that doing forms for points is kind of stupid, they started out resembling martial arts. Up until the eighties, forms competition was judged on how martial it looked. A good solid punch got more points than a flashy kick that wouldn't hit anything. Now you see guys winning competitions by swinging a a sword around really fast, but not looking where it is and holding it in a way that you could knock it out of his hand real easy.

I think most of the rural Chinese martial artists I met would agree with Lugaldamhara. When the kids start practicing, it's really easy to tell what style they are practicing. As they progress and get older, the style differences get a lot smaller. I wouldn't say what they do starts to look like kickboxing, but it can be hard to tell the advanced bagua guys from the taiji guys from the hongquan guys when they actually use stuff. When these guys do forms, you can still see the style, but you can also see that they've practiced all the techniques in the form many many times. They don't need government-sponsored competitions to tell them who is good and who isn't. They've figured it out among themselves.

I think forms and stances can be very useful, but only if you know why you're doing them. To do that, you have to take them apart, practice the techniques in a controlled situation, then try them in an uncontrolled situation, put the form back together, and keep repeating the process. Find out why a technique works, where it doesn't work, what to do if you mess up the technique. Practicing a technique in a form that you can't use inside out, upside down, backwards & blindfolded isn't necessarily useless, but it's a starting point, and you don't want to stay there long. I think one of the main benefits from forms comes if you are able to concentrate on how the techniques have worked in application while doing something that is physically and mentally demanding. If you legs are shaking and you can still focus on moving correctly and on how to do a technique properly, it helps you do the technique under pressure. If your legs are shaking and you just go through the motions or don't know what the techniques are for, it's only exercise.

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