some interesting take downs

I do train on dirt and grass. Every time. And I gotta tell you man, I could dig on a few mats.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

“	Originally Posted By: beknar But, doing it SOMETIMES on dirt, grass and concrete tends to give you a sense of perspective.	”

It does more than that, it gives you an advantage.

It prepares you for reality, it teaches you new aspects of balance and control, how to adapt and move on new territory and uncertain ground, it teaches you how to actually use what you learned in a safe environment in real life.

The chances of me having to actually fight someone on a mat in the street? 0
The chances of me actually having to use what I learned on a mat on the street? 15-95% (depending on where you live, where you work/hang out whom you hang out with and so on, but it's greater)

True. On the other hand, the ring or mat allows you to safely practice full power takedowns that could seriously injure your sparring partner if practiced on hard ground.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

Indeed.

The way we do it is to first train it in a safe environment until well learned and understood and then train it on other environments, ie; hills, sand, grass, concrete, pavement, ice, wet ground, water, etc.
This is not only takedowns but everything involving fighting techniques and skills, it give you a better understanding of what it actually takes under different contexts and gives you an edge if you ever need to use it in those environments.

“	Originally Posted By: Mei Hua It does more than that, it gives you an advantage. It prepares you for reality, it teaches you new aspects of balance and control, how to adapt and move on new territory and uncertain ground, it teaches you how to actually use what you learned in a safe environment in real life. The chances of me having to actually fight someone on a mat in the street? 0 The chances of me actually having to use what I learned on a mat on the street? 15-95% (depending on where you live, where you work/hang out whom you hang out with and so on, but it's greater)	”

But here's something you may have not considered. I'm a good looking guy. Doing this has a chance of messing up my chiseled good looks. My high norwegian chin could take a beating! Girls all over the world would weep in anguish.

Once you learn how to safely fall, training throws on grass is not bad. Usually if you really start going you really don't feel anything until you slow down.

But mats are really key to working with beginners and intermediate.

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: beknar But here's something you may have not considered. I'm a good looking guy. Doing this has a chance of messing up my chiseled good looks. My high norwegian chin could take a beating! Girls all over the world would weep in anguish.	”

Do you ever try to use this as an excuse to not do something your Sifu tells you to do in class?

I'm gonna guess not.

__________________
I must not fear.Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me & through me.& when it has gone I will turn to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.Only I will remain.F.Herbert

“	Originally Posted By: beknar But here's something you may have not considered. I'm a good looking guy. Doing this has a chance of messing up my chiseled good looks. My high norwegian chin could take a beating! Girls all over the world would weep in anguish.	”

What happened to the time when girls loved scars and a good story to match it?

"This scar on my chin? Well, these three punks tried robbing a little old lady of her purse, so I, being an upright honest guy, stepped in to help and used my martial arts skills to stop them. Had to take this one guy to the ground because he was three times my size, but I used my _______________(insert whatever there) and took the fight right out of them. I then called 911 and helped the little old lady as she had gone into cardiac arrest due to the fright and stress from being robbed, the paramedics said she would have died had I not been there to help her."


And bingo, solid gold

“	Usually if you really start going you really don't feel anything until you slow down.	”

It's normally in the shower afterwards when I feel everything kick in.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

That may be more information than we really needed...

__________________
Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Yet, suprisingly less than I was willing to share...

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

“	Originally Posted By: Unkotare Why?	”

Good question.

I think a lot of traditional northern plains CMA are suspicious of air kicks & techniques taken out of context. A lot of the reasons why you should be suspicious have been covered pretty well in this thread. The question of how to get from practicing something to actually using it is a very old question.

TMA's don't always make sense out of context. Northern CMA's started out with farmers & peasants. On the one hand, about as tough & macho a group as anyone on the planet. Think Yao Ming or Cung Le. On the other, they work with their bodies, not their brains, and don't get injury leave.

So these guys want something that works. You never know when your village might be attacked by a large group wanting to steal your food. Can't defend yourself = starving to death. But training too tough & getting injured also = starving to death.

Anyway, back to the question. Ever seen someone throw a kick in sparring and think "Wow, what a beautiful kick. Too bad it was two feet from his opponnent's head." Our solution is to spend a lot of time kicking at a moving target. A lot of it is light-contact in pre-choreographed sets to get the feel of combining different moves, like in the videos. The injury rate is much lower than free-sparring. Another solution might be to kick against pads held by people or to wear padding so you can kick harder.

Also, falling because you decided to practice falling isn't the same as falling because someone threw you. I suppose you could argue that falling when you know someone is going to throw you isn't the same as falling when you don't know you're going to get thrown, but it's a lot closer.

At any rate, any method that needs $$$ isn't going to be used. Developing country & everything. Matts cost $$$. It's a bias, I suppose. Stupid rich wimps--look at them practicing on matts. It's the prevailing attitude.

The reason the guys are practicing on cement is that the university sports field where they used to train was covered with sod, so only official sports teams could use it. This was the only park that didn't charge admission. The ground in the area is a very hard clay. Great for tennis courts & outdoor basketball. Not quite as hard as cement, though. Right now I train on grass, because it's free, & good for being aware of your surroundings. (#&$% gophers!!) In the winter we're on either cement or a good sprung floor, but we don't practice this as much in the winter.

__________________
http://www.meihuazhuang.ca
http://www.jeffreyquinn.ca

Not to nitpick but Cung Le is American-born of Vietnamese descent with a pretty solid record in high school wrestling and a whole lot of natural talent.

Anyway the idea of northern plains peasants training tough or avoiding too tough training, okay, it just sounds like theory. There's no way to know 100%. My own theory about throwing/groundwork is from kung fu movies where occasionally you'll hear a line like "never fight on the ground, it's dirty," so my theory is that CMA developed less groundwork because of a prevailing attitude about fighting on the ground.

But then you have shuai chiao, developed up on the northern plains and massively popular in the 19th-early 20th centuries, and that sport is all about throwing a person on his butt as hard as you can. No mats.

__________________
"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

If we are in the theory section now, then I can add in my own!

Actually I can't take full credit, one of my kung fu brothers and I talked about the subject at great lengths and developed a lot of varying theories. As to the lack of throwing/groundwork in Kung Fu, our theory is that it had to do with the historical time and necessity. Kung Fu was primarily a skill used to train soldiers for war, so weapons were really emphasized. Unarmed combat was big, but not too big. On the battlefield, a fallen soldier could be easily be trampled and stabbed. So our theory really revolved around going to ground = game over.

I think that is another reason for the type of throws you typically see in TCMA. Typically they are sweeps and very rarely do you see any type of hip or shoulder throw. They're there...but not as prevalent as this type of throw would expose your back to the enemy initially, and other enemies at the end of the throw.

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell