Really there was just 1 type of sweep that was employed with over-elaborate hand techniques on a "dead" opponent. One of my big pet peeves is seeing people demonstrate on a guy who does an initial attack and then just sits there for 3-5sec while the other guy flurries on him. Its unrealistic and, in my opinion, a poor demo.
I would prefer to see 1 of 2 things:
1) The attacker does not stand still after the initial attack, but blocks/counters the defender until the final Chin Na/Throw is applied
2) The defender performs a quick and simple final Chin Na/Takedown (where the attacker is never sitting still in a "dead" posture).
The 2nd sweep demo'd in this video is one that does not look very effective at all. It works on the uninitiated, but without controlling the other leg or forcing all the weight onto the trapped leg, this throw won't do anything but cause the person to stagger back. Now, that in itself can be useful potential to set something else up. But I would just prefer to initiate a stronger sweep.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the 2nd sweep I saw here is the one taking the guy over his knee.
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Originally
Posted By: WraithAlcon
Honestly, I don't like it.
Really there was just 1 type of sweep that was employed with over-elaborate hand techniques on a "dead" opponent. One of my big pet peeves is seeing people demonstrate on a guy who does an initial attack and then just sits there for 3-5sec while the other guy flurries on him. Its unrealistic and, in my opinion, a poor demo.
I would prefer to see 1 of 2 things:
1) The attacker does not stand still after the initial attack, but blocks/counters the defender until the final Chin Na/Throw is applied
2) The defender performs a quick and simple final Chin Na/Takedown (where the attacker is never sitting still in a "dead" posture).
The 2nd sweep demo'd in this video is one that does not look very effective at all. It works on the uninitiated, but without controlling the other leg or forcing all the weight onto the trapped leg, this throw won't do anything but cause the person to stagger back. Now, that in itself can be useful potential to set something else up. But I would just prefer to initiate a stronger sweep.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the 2nd sweep I saw here is the one taking the guy over his knee.
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Ditto
Lacked control, lack practicality and was inefficient at best.
In general poor technique, poor skill, poor demo.
Though if I ever do such a demo, I too, will make sure I'm not wearing a shirt to show how bad ass I am and after I take someone down, go to a salute posture rather than keeping my guard up and ready for his reply as he isn't going to just die and stop fighting, so if you don't train the idea of always being ready, that will come out in a real fight, you'll hit someone or do a crappy takedown and drop your guard and be surprised that they can still fight back and they clocked you one.
The techniques themselves weren't bad in showing the "traditional" manner of the technique. I would've liked to have seen them applied from a "modern world" manner. Nobody, I mean nobody, squares off sei ping ma vs sei ping ma to fight with kiu sao extended. But that's a decent representation of the foundation of the technique.
Would've also liked to have seen a little more speed & some resistance to the techniques (trad or mod) to show application.
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I don't have any problem with this if it's in the context of "this is how a move from a set is applied", and if it's a starting point to begin to learn a technique. It really depends if they do like a lot of schools and stop here, or if they start to strip away the "ideal" conditions seen in the demo here and experiment with all the different variables.
I have no problem with that either. But to do that you need something that is quick and efficient in a real setting, just slowed down. There is no way he could hit all those points with the opponent not responding.
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Originally
Posted By: Mei Hua
All in all, people that say those were good techniques and train/teach them are why CMA's are the joke they are to the real world.
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Because a majority of the CMA taught 2nd generation in NA & else where don't know them... they know some forms, some conditioning, some qi gong... but they know squat about applying what they know. On top of that, they don't look from outside the box to their material to examine it. To further that, the some think since it's CMAs they should fight like they do forms or have it look like Shaw Bros. Neither work so they kickbox for "sparring" or put up the "too deadly" arguement with compliant punch dummies for demonstration.
A good many CMA practitioners (myself included I'm sure to a degree to my own fault) don't want to try it out, loose & then have to examine what didn't work. CLF has the valid framework, I'm just too freaking old at this point to get banged up to prove it to myself. If they train to make it work, learned how to make it work, practice it like they're using it ... chances are it might work & suprise themselves by it working as advertised, just not looking as cool as Lau Ga Leung.
Forms are a text book. They contain the framework knowledge, but as anybody who's got half a working brain, textbook <> life. Same with the rest...
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I think that just because you can derive application from form with strict technique thats really just a mental bridge. Even very realistic forms dont translate 100% to combat because of the variability of two living being in motion. You should show how the same technique or more importantly the principle of the technique naturally modifies when used in real time, in a reality based scenario.
I dont think this guy even knows that this stuff doesnt work like that at all in the real world. Something about the way he moves says he has no clue.
Originally
Posted By: GuiLongUmar
I think that just because you can derive application from form with strict technique thats really just a mental bridge. Even very realistic forms dont translate 100% to combat because of the variability of two living being in motion.
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**Disclaimer: I'm speaking for myself here, no other schools/styles/teachers included, involved or implied**
Every motion performed should have an application. If not, it's exercise. Every motion performed should be played as if being used. If not, it's wasted motion. However what people don't know how to do/how to look at much of the time, is stepping out of the box of the strict technique. I agree with you 100% two (or more) people in motion can't be pre-measured. However if you have "X" number of techniques practiced from different angles & footwork, you should be ok, if they were practiced properly.
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Originally
Posted By: GuiLongUmar
You should show how the same technique or more importantly the principle of the technique naturally modifies when used in real time, in a reality based scenario.
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That's the thing. The knowledge/technique of how to pull applications out of a form is missing or faulty in large part. So to supplement/supplant, people end up kickboxing.
If in a form I do... "poon kiu". It's a big circular motion. It's supposed to be. When I use it in teaching or sparring, it's much shorter & appears more like a downward slap than the form contains it. Why is it different?? Well there's lots of reasons & opinions that we all may/may not agree on, but I'll say for me only, it's gonna be short when used. If I always train it short only, when I need it, it'll be shorter. We train big to fight short.
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Originally
Posted By: GuiLongUmar
I dont think this guy even knows that this stuff doesnt work like that at all in the real world. Something about the way he moves says he has no clue.
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Oh I think he does know the stuff works ... according to what he's been told. So he's trying duplicate it. However, something went missing along the way. Something wasn't learned or taught & so there's a deficiency, but he's trying. That's more than a lot of people do. They take it at face value & look no further or assume it doesn't work & move on because it doesn't fit a certain mold or idea that had in their mind.
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Artificial and unecessary hesitations while he tenses up - nothing wrong with a natural pause to keep a demo clear and easy to follow if that's what you're doing but this is more a "look at my muscles" interruption. Hand strikes that originate with the shoulder if he's lucky... The usual excuse is these people are "great athletes" but I think in this case it's more "great conformity to a certain physique".
Still, it could be this is just an attempt to look a certain way and the guy has great fluid applications when not in front of a camera...
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Nah! Don’t agree with most of yer, true the situation is artificial but I still like the way the take downs are done.
He does everything that needs to be done, he controls and redirects the attack, destroys the balance and uses the body to apply the take down and its not just one sweep. there are close and long range techniques and the balance is broken both in straight lines and in circles.
John 100 can’t agree at all about the way he moves, the foot work is technically excellent booth smooth and flowing.
The tie chi clip is short but hopefully there is enough for the tie chi peeps to come up with an opinion.
That's ok, those takedowns were absolute crap that would have a high percentage of never working in a real life scenario, good luck training in that stuff.
Me? I'll choose practicality and efficiency over junk any day, I don't wont my CMA to be one of the ****ty ones that get the LARPer reputation that so many do
He also has no core power with his moves, has no real control and his takedowns were sloppily executed against a overly compliant opponent.
Originally
Posted By: Mei Hua
That's ok, those takedowns were absolute crap that would have a high percentage of never working in a real life scenario, good luck training in that stuff.
Me? I'll choose practicality and efficiency over junk any day, I don't wont my CMA to be one of the ****ty ones that get the LARPer reputation that so many do
He also has no core power with his moves, has no real control and his takedowns were sloppily executed against a overly compliant opponent.
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How can you tell from the vid he has no core power with his moves?
Why do you say he has no real control ?
How were the takedowns slopy?
If they train to make it work, learned how to make it work, practice it like they're using it ... chances are it might work & suprise themselves by it working as advertised, just not looking as cool as Lau Ga Leung.
