Grappling vs Striking

I would attribute wins of good wrestlers (that is, experienced, tough and STRONG ones) more to the lack of quality on the BJJ side. It is probably a new experience to that guys that doing BJJ is not one automatic ticket to win, if the other is just good at what he does, and you are not. Fact is (afaik) that in the ol' times of the good Gracies taking part, they were NOT "easily handled" from greco-romans.

Regarding the sport-vs-fighting "nonsense", sports is a good base for a lot of things, for example coordination, competitiveness, reaction, endurance, power, etc. Just it is dangerous where the rules of the sports, or simply goals, prevent from doing something cruel where the situation is open for it. A judo throw is a problem for many people who are not used to falling on concrete. Other people would not stop fighting from one. A judo throw where you don't fall, but keep the arm in your lock and just keep standing maims everyone, no solution to it once you were thrown. A lot of wrestlers would learn typical chinese maiming stuff in no time, from having most if not all the base for it. Just only seldomly, you figure that things from intuition. If you add that to the sports base, you are far towards top of the pack. In wrestling you win with scoring a point based on a technique. I don't think they have trouble to hurt people, but some ways of hurting are easier and more successful than others. Most of the fighting strategies/locks are not part of greco-roman from being forbidden. Doing something you practice is far better than pulling it out without, or is it wrong to do that conclusion when it is used outside the "forms" argument

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

It's called "example". BTW it was the european championship for US military, not some airport throwdown. I think this poll has gotten somewhat off topic. My opinion was, there are different sorts of striking and different sorts of wrestling, which all give you tools to excel with if you put it properly together instead of using a fork for eating soup. I don't exactly like the "western wrestling beats all" ideology even if you need a good level to overcome it. Despite of that, one punch knockout is not the way of beating a wrestler, especially when most people don't possess remotely the power to do it. Regarding the original question, you need both in self defense. With grappling being well above the usability of striking.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

Sorry Nik - I just realised that you misunderstood me - When I said that wrestling was the best for the top position - I meant that in terms of fighting for the "top" position on the ground, as opposed to fighting off your back - something that BJJ does better than any other art IMHO.

As far as competition rules hindering competition - again I believe this sort of thinking comes from people who don't train alive. The entire reason that Kano took out certain techniques was so that the art could be trained with 100% resistance without killing your opponent, training in this manner means that you get used to appling techniques on resisting opponents instead of drilling "deadly" moves on a compliant and willing partner. As I said before - it's not what you train, but HOW you train that's important.

It's easy to show a competant boxer how to eye gouge, bite and headbutt - he'll be used to creating openings using his feet and scoring hits. Now take a guy who only drills eye gouges, headbutts and biting on someone who just stands there (or throws a punch and leaves his arm out) and when push comes to shove he'll be unlikely to land any of those techniques.

Anyway - we are getting off topic, interesting subject though.

I think that if a trained grappler met a trained striker, the striker would be in deep trouble. But, in a street fight your chances of running into a seasoned grappler are very low. Your chances of running into multiple opponents are very high! Two scrawny teenagers with no martial arts training can whip Royce Gracie. Whereas a karate black belt would be able to hold his ground in that situation.

Hmmmm, just wondering if I would get shot if I said that striking is better for self defense, and grappling is better for sporting events.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Not shot but you might get wrestled to the ground and choked out

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Well, either way. I knew that it wasn't going to be a welcomed comment.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Well, in the case of two teenagers (or three, four) against Royce Gracie, my money is on Royce in less than 30 seconds. Perhaps you underestimate the usability of strength and hardcore standup wrestling.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

That's just too confusing for a mere mortal like me. How does a grappler fight 4 people simultaneously

Does he grapple them all up into a big ball

Or do they wait in line to be grappled

If they line up to be grappled, does the grappler grapple them to death in the order in which they lined up, or do they go and join the back of the line after they have been grappled by the grappler for a bit, until they have all had all the sh!t grappled out of them

Sorry, but I'm still grappling with the concept

“	Originally posted by Nik Well, in the case of two teenagers (or three, four) against Royce Gracie, my money is on Royce in less than 30 seconds. Perhaps you underestimate the usability of strength and hardcore standup wrestling.	”

I dont underestimate the usability of strength and stand up wrestling. Royce unfortunately is known for neither!

errr - how does a stand up guy fight 4 people simultaneously

He uses footwork, mobility, timing and distance and then he still probably gets the crap beaten out of him - same goes for a grappler.

contrary to popular belief not all grappling takes place on the floor - in fact getting hold of one guy and using him as a shield counts as grappling doesn't it

going to a neck tie and blasting a guy with knees as you use him as a shield - grappling

Hell - a good takedown can end a fight pretty quickly - take a look at my "this is evil" thread in the random discussions.

some of you guys should stop drinking that haterade - just because you have no knowledge of something doesn't mean it's worthless - except to you.

doug2
you're a jaapie, so i'll excuse you... but you need to get a sense of humour dude and stop being so defensive


ps: are you going to the game at Newlands on Saturday
what do you think of the bok selections

Sorry mate - didn't realise you were joking and am just tired of people using the same old tired (and untue dammit!) arguments against grappling.

Now on to hijacking this thread - got me a ticket for the game but might not be able to go (not sure I want to actually - losing 53 - 3 to England was torture enough)

Bok team could be a lot stronger IMO, but old rudolph says he has a plan so who knows I think the sooner we drop Louis koen from pivot the better.

I think if it rains heavily we might be in with a chance otherwise it's going to be a long day for South Africa.

consider it Highjacked!

Yup i agree about Koen (although his place kicking is mighty handy) I think pretorius is the best fly half in SA
But what is with keeping those two bricks Halstead and Snyman Give me Fleck any day over those two!

Anyway, hope you make it to the game and it is a good one. I'll be up late watching on the TV!

Fu-Pau

"I don't care who wins the World Cup, just as long as it ain't England!"

Cracker of a game!

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill