Grappling vs Striking

Lance Havock · #46 (**permalink**) July 13th, 2003, 03:34 PM

I say that anybody would have hard time fighting multiole opponents, unless they were eight year olds

Taijisd · #47 (**permalink**) July 13th, 2003, 03:44 PM

I don't know dude, 8 yr olds can be pretty viscious...

Way of Kyokushinkai! · #48 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 05:21 AM

“	Originally posted by doug2 errr - how does a stand up guy fight 4 people simultaneously	”

Against 4 people, he would be in trouble. But, if they were two, the striker could put one of them down with a blow to the solar plexis or kick to the balls. His buddy will automatically assume the role of passification. You put one down and the other will become a Gandhi. On the other hand if you get tangled with one, his buddy turns into a vicious attacker and start pounding.

Gracie, Taktarov, Severn and all these UFC big guys will get clobbered if there were 2 instead one one.

**Nik** · #49 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 07:07 AM

My brother has been attacked by no less than 20 teenagers, without warning. The first guy, the oldest, and "leader", did a jumping kick that connected fully to his eye which was black next day. To that guys greatest surprise, my brother did not faint but hammered his head back to mars with one strike, he went down, and stayed down. The rest of the ratpack ran away. I am sure that an organized group could have done good enough to give him no chance. But groups which aren't trained, or don't experience that sort of thing often with developing such a strategy of swarming, taking down, and kicking, often don't act organized. All you need is good legs, moving fast, and brutally hammering away all guys you lay your hands on. I can swear if such a pack attacks me, the first guys will not be alive to tell what happened. I might not survive, but they surely also won't all. I am a little preset on such sort of "fun", and I am not forgiving such things. I don't do funny lead kicks, but will use my bagua wrestling techniques to get past everyone giving me enough space and time to do so and while doing that, I have my hand on his face and the next thing they hear will be a hard, snapping sound of a cracking spine. My brother had luck, I will have performance, of the sort that needs something to them to stop it. And I am pretty sure that a Taktarov or Gracie will do that very identical thing to a bunch of 15 years old weighting a mere 150 pounds each. If you see on that clip somewhere on bullshido or mcdojo or something, where a group of three guys attack a redneck, you see a completely uninspired trashtalking parody of an offense, giving anyone with good practice any chance to lock an arm on clinch, and rip it out with a body twist lock. I can lift such a guy off the ground and slam his meager leftover piledriver style into the ground, head first. And if I like, out of a clinch I also could drive my elbow or palm into his head. If you are talking a group of aggressive, organized fighting grown ups who have been in serious fights, it's something different. It will be a hard task, and it relies on a very good sense of footwork, with staying on your feet at any cost. And you have to fight extremely good. Probably I could not do this anymore, since I am not good in shape. But talking of TEENAGERS who don't weight 220 pounds each to easily beat a good fighter, you are dreaming. I would have liked to be in that situation in that movie "kids", where a group of aggressive skater do away an elder kid. I can assure you that it would be my fun, not theirs, and I am sure it would make good for a John Woo movie. It's my great concern that my bad shape doesn't allow for such fights, since I am not giving up to such loads of dirtbags.

Fu-Pau · #50 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 08:13 AM

**GuiLongUmar** · #51 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 12:05 PM

To fight one is to fight many.

Though this is obviously easier said than done. The Idea is integral to martialarts & combat.
We should strive to make our skill such that combat is resolved most efficiently with the least amount of effort. We dont think "this is what I will do when" etc. etc etc.

The way of strategy is not separate from combat.
I think The Book of Five Rings is an essensial resource fro understand the strategy of combat. Technique is ALMOST irrelevent.

**Nik** · #52 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 01:11 PM

I am sick of hearing that you must do Frodo's Hobbit SpecOp Unit H2H combat system to get rid of more than one teenager, if I know that such guys are strong if you are intimidated and can't defend, and they can exploit it. I am more willing to payback now that I am not a small boy who really can't. Perhaps ask Ken Tower what it will be like when I am pissed off and deal with someone of his weight. And currently I am not exactly well trained.

**Nik** · #53 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 01:25 PM

To fight one is not to fight many. If you fight one, you can fight controlled and do not need to watch back. If fighting many, you have to fight all out armaggeddon style, or will face risk to be humiliated. Or to be correct, you WILL need luck. Typically, a ratpack will aggravate if you fight hesitatingly and need time only to deal with the first one. At the moment many come at you from all directions, at one moment, you will have to evade. Evading styles like Bagua are good to go to places out of the fighting directions of about two or three guys, but if all come at one time, you just can jump over them and run (for you, baichi: that was a joke...). Once you take the fight, people you put down have to never come back, or you will run out of energy. Only if you can show you are the one who dictates who is going to survive, others will hesitate, giving you time to act. No time, no fight. And I am quite sure that without typical grappling manouvres of stepping, disrooting, pulling people by their arms of their shoes, with just some punches or solar plexus kicks, groups will get their hands on you and pull you down.
Baichi, why is it that you just cannot be glad I defend grappling in confrontations, or make intelligent comments like when it's about Sumo

**GuiLongUmar** · #54 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 01:53 PM

"If you fight one, you can fight controlled and do not need to watch back. If fighting many, you have to fight all out armaggeddon style, or will face risk to be humiliated. "

1. When do you ever not fight controlled
2. When do you not fight armageddon style as you put it.

One person or ten you will die just as easily. You train so that you can lower the element of chance as much as possible. You act with extreme prejudice regardless of numbers because you recognize the fragility of your mortality. You hold onto your Humanity so as not to be savage, but you must be effective and efficient. The strategum is the same, the application varies. If it is not you are setting yourself up for loss.

This is experience talking.

Taijisd · #55 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 02:15 PM

You mean the super power of qi can be overcome
Damn!

**Nik** · #56 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 02:20 PM

When one person attacks me, I can easily evade (if there is any space) to any direction, without running a risk I move into a space that exposes my back to another combatant. I can evade as long as I want, and I will not have to act violent to take someone out to reduce the number. I am pretty aware of humanity and a feeling that is called compassion. It's why I stopped practicing or being in shape for fighting. I do not at all have to fight all out when I just have to defend. I am forced to give ten times as much if a group attacks me for having to reduce them one by one fast, without loosing too much power. A good fighter vs. some peanuts ones also can fight less vicious if it's only two. I would like calling that CONTROLLED, you more or less toy around. If it's three it's beginning to be hard since you cannot line them up. If it's four you have to intimidate them so you have the time to get rid of one, and not get pulled down. After that you only can shock them so they do not like to continue though they would still prevail if they act clear moving in slowly on you. I could not shock someone with fighting "controlled", I go into a adrenalin rush super rage and will tear the first one, and hope it will not be as much to put him into wheelchair or graveyard. It's about a FIGHT, not about talking or impressing. Once the fight has started, it's not a playground. You should be able to judge the power, prowess and skill of a group so it is not suicide to fight, as long as the group is small (I would even toy around with a group of up to 3 not too powerful guys). With a large number of opponents, if they realize they just would have to swarm you running over you, you will be dead. It is if you can shock their mind how you deal with the first one, and this is not a "controlled" dojo type kick. I most often do not even know what I do before it happens, and it did somehow succeed all the time. My scars and cracked skull are from the time I was too small to defend myself. It's this why I am not fighting "controlled", although I have enough from my taoist teachers to stay away from fighting and try to lower that pressure.

BTW, you will have to adapt that "rules" to your playground if you know that most people carry weapons in your area. I will run away if I fight a group with knives, unless I happen to have two combat knives or a sword.

**Nik** · #57 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 02:23 PM

Oh, I forgot:

**GuiLongUmar** · #58 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 02:40 PM

Hmm, in a small way we are trying to say the same thing. Different views effected by different experiences.

Worst case scenario, multiple attackers with weapons and you can't run.
I wont say you can or would stay calm. But all your instincts for survival are triggered. No calm but yes a great deal of Focus. You have to be sure the opponent you contact will not resurface because you can not keep it up all day.

I understand the idea of evading a single opponent, he may very well give up. But would you do this to an opponent YOU deem as skilled and potentially deadly Given your ability to assess the threat.

**Nik** · #59 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 03:20 PM

A real response !

I have to jump on that one...

BTW, generally, I can understand you point. It's only that I am really P____ from the number of MMA posers or fan boys that deny any capability whatsoever of "us" other normal mortals.

“	Originally posted by baichi I know. There's just something about certain types of statement that trigger the response. They include: -No one can do "X" to me.	”

Depending on what "X" is and who you are, this can be true or not. If "X" is "shoot", anytime. If "X" is "wrestle" and your name is Gracie, or you are a 220lb semiprofessional wrestler, yes. If "X" is wrestle and you are a weekly training MMA fan boy of 200 fat overweight no-power pounds, NO YOU CANNOT. Even today. If "X" is "ground", and you are a group of 150lb teenagers, and you don't meet me all at once, no, you can't. I have done that, I am DAMN sure, you cannot. I toyed around with them, noone died... I probably had the better shoes. Maybe.

“	-My master could kill anyone alive today. (but won't of course)	”

He's dead. He won't. I am sure he "could" have done a lot to many people, but somehow this did not overtly meet his interests. However, I can understand your point, and I am DEEPLY disappointed of many "masters" I saw, and of the talking of superiority of this or that sort of kind. The state of martial "masters" of today is mostly mediocre. I would not make a big point of it, but I understand that professionals looking at them would not like to hear that guys would do this or that. I just can assure you that at least a few 70 years old have some extreme capabilities that noone believes just looking at them. This is not the rule, thanks god.

“	-The super power of chi cannot be overcome.	”

You really doubt that

Well, honestly spoken, you could translate that to strength, power, endurance, speed. You cannot overcome greater speed, power, skill and experience with just being mean. That "qi", I thought you spoke on that one with Chen Quanzhong, can be translated to a trained body full of optimized muscles, metabolism and reflexes. I work on my ability to levitate, that will be my spare time activity after I am 50.

That some people have strange opinions on "qi" to make impossible working, does not mean that qigong does not enhance your biological abilities. Some might be really useful in a confrontation. For example that my bones don't get numb when someone hits them (unless with a baseball bat, of course).

“	-In "X" situation, I would do "X", and "X" would be the inevitable outcome.	”

I "think" I know what you mean, but what I did was an enraged response to the idea that a bunch of 15 years old can do this or that if they're four on one. I am often surprised that I do something different each time, and it works somehow. If you fought yourself you know that in a real fight you only know about what you did after it happened, and you couldn't do it again. Of course if you fight all friday night, you will get some habits. Just I know at least one former national wrestling champion who speaks exactly like that (I will tear off his arms and feed it to him) and noone gives him

I DEMAND my right to spew senseless fury statements of that same kind.

“	-I am one bad mother-****er, and everyone who knows me agrees......really!	”

As this is a question regarding real world fighting, I do not hold back. That's all about it. I do not fight mannerly, and I do not "behave". I do not engage, and I try to solve everything with talking. I do not like real pitfights, and I walked away as the "loser" of a confrontation with someone really bad because I did not knew if I would win that one (long-haired well-dressed hooker type with prison tattoes and hands like shovels). I do not see what is bad about it if it is true that I do not fight textbook nicely. I mentioned a guy who knows this, because I pushed him around, and showed him stuff of the real deal of Bagua, and he's about the size of a typical "teenager". I am sure he will not say that what I did does "not work in a real fight", blablabla. I am sure in a fight with teenagers this works 100%. It's probably not smart to talk so much about that sort of fighting.

“	-I could do "X", but wouldn't want to kill everyone.	”

I would like to kill everyone in certain situations, that doesn't mean I could do that to professionals fresh from the gym. I would also probably freeze against maneaters with gold rings on their tattoed hands, bad m. written on their purse. But I started to do it in such situations on a sports ground and was pretty successful. If Mark Coleman can withstand the power I can put out, that does not mean a teenager or very normal 20 year wannabe fighter pusher could. I just decided to work on that, and don't train to be able to do it. At the end I will train to be competent to prevail in the sort of situation you can control. All what is beyond is a matter of luck, and circumstances.

“	and many more. kinda an 'anti-poser' response	”

How do you tell if something is posing, or angry generalization from not too good times
Of course I understand your reflex to posing, but I think you see posing in everything. I am not a professional, but I take my pride to say I can defend also against a greater number of non-pros trying to give it to me or someone else in the park. I can't say what will happen when it is a large number, or a few capable ones. I do not give in, and I write that I don't. YOU have to take it from me, I don't give my life before it is over. This is something a soldier wrote, and I agree to it. I will not write like if it is X or Y than I am f****d, or X will kick my sorry a**. You already are beaten if you say this. I know my chances in a real fight with too many people at once, but this does not mean I won't try. or forget about my only choice.

Thanks for the first conversation.

**Nik** · #60 (**permalink**) July 14th, 2003, 03:22 PM

“	Originally posted by baichi (x100 for the dramatic effect)	”

So you cannot sprawl and go out of the line of attack as long as you want, space provided