Hsing Yi, Internal? Other Arts Not?

Why would Hsing Yi be classified and internal art but something like Wing Chun Would not be

Its curious to me considering the methods of hsing yi practice.
Is there a standard by which things are categorized internal or external

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

There are a lot of standards, based on geography (founded in China, internal, somewhere else, external), cumulation of chi, principles of motion, etc.

So, based on which standard you look at, Wing Chun can be internal, too (founded in China), but the whole thing is very complicated. There are arts that nobody will argue about (Tai Chi just IS internal), but there are lots of bordercases.

Just to state one popular theorie (if I understood this correctly): there are four internal arts (Qi Gong, Tai Chi, Bagua, Hsing-I) and everything else is either external or a combination/variation of these four. Obviously, there are many other theories.

__________________
You only die once. But it lasts such a long time.-French proverb

Although I don't personally buy into the "internal vs external" distinction, it's a convention that has been established nonetheless.

I would venture to guess that Hsing Yi is considered "internal" because, at it's very core, it's a study of 5 energies and how their manifestations are developed.

This is not to say that Wing Chun doesn't study energies, but for the most part, Wing Chun is viewed as a technique oriented art, whereas Hsing Yi is more principle based.

Plus you have the added benefit of Sun Lu Tang authoring a book on Hsing Yi many years ago where he says it's a "nei jia" school. So people take that definition and run with it and they fail to look at some of his other works where he mentions that any art that focuses on the dan tien is considered the same as "nei jia".

Peace

Illusion thats one of thie things I was fishign for.

Though to argue that further I would say that WC still seems more principle based than technique based. Its just that the technique compliments well the principles and stays in suit.

The Core principle in Pai Lum is to control the center and take control of others centers. (broad enough for you)
There are methods for movement and attaching and striking that facilitate this. Not so much You have to punch like this or kick like that. Because it wont matter if you cant issue the energy correctly anyway.

But that goes for 90% of CMA.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

Yeah, personally, I wouldn't argue if an art is technique based or principle based- in the end it all depends on your teacher and then eventually how you personally perceive and express your chosen system(s).

However, with that being said, I can see why some would argue that Wing Chun is more technique based, simply due to the fact that there are many established methods in Wing Chun that are technique-oriented answers or solutions for a particular problem. This could be because of Wing Chun's emphasis on trapping range- all revolving around centerline dominance. Let's use a scenario within trapping range to illustrate-

This might get wordy so bare with me.

You have two opponents bridged in a classical wrist to wrist bridge. Opponent A defends, Opponent B is the agressor. Opponent B comes in with a left pak sau to A's hand and strikes with a right yat ji choi (sun fist) (This whole technique is oftentimes called pak da). Opponent A disengages and pak saus the sun punch with his left hand and uses a right lop sau to disengage from the opponents left hand. In the midst of the lop sau, A uses a right jow sau (running hand- like a side palm strike) to strike the left side of B's head. Opponent B responds with a left Tan Sau to block the Jow Sau. Opponent A then tries to Jut Sau the Tan Sau in order to spring B's arm down and pop up with a strike to the chest. Since Jut Sau is a common response to Tan Sau, Opponent B knows that he can use Kwun Sau (which is a combination of tan sau and bong sau) to cover both of this flanks since he doesn't know which side Opponent A will strike with after the Jut Sau. Opponent B will have to rely on his sensitivity to know which side to alter the kwun sau, but he knows kwun sau will probably be work.

Now in this example, the Tan, Jut, and Kwun Sau sequence is a technique oriented answer, albeit based in principle, that is often used. You can argue that the principles are the underlying factor that gives life to the technique, but we know that you can know a technique works without ever understanding the principle(s) behind it. More often than not, a lot of Wing Chunners will just do a sequence by rote and not really understand WHY they are doing it.

However, the same can be said of Hsing Yi players who get caught up in the whole constructive/destructive cycle of the five elements. Very rarely will practitioners actually delve into the actual energies of the elements and realize they are not bound by the constructive/destructive cycles- just like a wing chunner can realize they are not bound by some of the more conventional automatic response patterns that are engrained by training constant sensitivity drills like chi sau, etc.

Peace

Excellent post, you get a rep for that one definately.
Even Hung Kuen with all ist bridges gets deaply into elements energies and so forth. The physical work is really a means to an end is it not Like hsing yi the energy is taught through that movement but not dependent on it.

Pai Lum is still closely related to Shaolin Dragon style. Lots of energy use, both taking and giving. And though we work our asses off physically it all comes down to the contact between two opponents and what you say to eachother through the energy being transferred. One person not only tries to dominate center but take or control the energy of the whole.

I suppose if you look deeply enough or develope skill enough any art can be internal whether classified that way or not. Hmm still just thinking aloud.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

<<though we work our asses off physically >>

some other aspects of internal or external...internal would see that (other than health) as a fallacy, and that nature provides the means to delver as intended by nature.

The internal development of chi flow alters the body itself spend some time on the hsingi threads on this issue; consider the alteration of bone through chi flow not many external arts talk about that. The external development of muscle and tendon through extensive use is a different concept of potential power development.

I would say that there is an issue not in power development but potential power development that may be where the two separate.

__________________
You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Or again, why would BaJi, Pi Qua be considered external Both have alot of similarities with BaGua, Xing Yi, and are daoist to boot.... so

__________________
What is the sound of one hand clawing? -- chanh buddhist proverb

"I would say that there is an issue not in power development but potential power development that may be where the two separate."

Hmm Elaborate.
What good is the latter if you never do the first

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

“	Originally Posted By: mok Or again, why would BaJi, Pi Qua be considered external Both have alot of similarities with BaGua, Xing Yi, and are daoist to boot.... so	”

I agree Mok. The whole "internal vs external" thing is complete crap. You can't have one without the other.

Aqira- I wouldn't go so far as saying that "external" arts don't concentrate on the bone. Even according to old five animals models, the tiger has always been said to train the bone.

Peace

I've studied and played with Hsing-i people and I have played with Wing Chun people - they do not move the same.

Wing Chun is external (as it progresses it does add more internal principles) and when they do chi sau it is obvious they are not really using the entire body and center (not like an internalist would).

Hsing-i looks the most external of the internal arts - but that is only appearance (outward). Inwardly is where the difference is obvious.

~ Eric Putkonen

__________________
~ Eric Putkonen
(teaching T'ai Chi Ch'uan in Plymouth, MN)