Grappling within Kung Fu

Hello everyone!

I beleive this is my first original posting! hoorah!

In this forum recently i have been reading a lot of "GRAPPLING IS SUPERIOR" types of posting, which is somewhat interesting to me, but mainly just a large irritant that has been getting on my nerves. Mainly because of the fact that it is not superior.. just different (i bet im not the first to say that. but anyway). I beleive it has been Cam who has been saying a lot about how BJJ usually beats striking arts such as kung fu.

Now fair enough grappling methods and striking methods are PRETTY different in how they work, so i guess its quite possible that a striker who doesnt know that a person might grab a part of him (including the part that he is striking with) and maybe even force him to the floor by doing so could lose to such a person, however most strikers should learn about distance training etc and KEEPING a distance (to at least stop things like a rugby tackle type grapple happening) so grappling can WORK but its about as useful as a striker.

But thats not what this is about.

Kung Fu for one thing is more then one individual art, its hundreds: some dead like Crab style. Some alive and thriving more then perhaps they should like Wing Chun.

But MOST styles of kung fu have a large amount of GRAPPLING! chin na, used pretty much in EVERY SINGLE CHINESE STYLE (and a lot of others) is GRAPPLING. whether its to get a person to the floor or to joint lock their arm. Kung Fu arts are striking, grappling, jump striking, jump grappling, stance changing, arts (in general) so if a grappling art is superior. then i guess so are most styles of kung fu.

Well maybe then this is about Groundfighting. well, i beleive THAT is in a lot of styles of Kung Fu too! maybe they dont train it as a primary method, but for the most part Kung Fu arts were used for war or otherwise, i suppose ones for bodyguards (on some occasions) or assasins (im not sure if there are any kung fu styles created primarily for this purpose, but hey there could be) might want a bit more focus, but if your going to kill a guy, you dont want to learn all about laying on him for a long period of time with other men running all around you fighting too. Groundfighting in chinese styles is mainly getting the person to the floor, and if you have to continue fighting him, you stay STANDING. now this post may get disagreements from some KF fighters. but in a lot of KF there is groundfighting, just less of it then a primarily ground art. (im starting to waffle now, nuts.... i know the point im trying to make but im screwing it up! whoops!) now if grappling and groundfighting ARE superior. then most kung fu is superior, and it also contains striking and tripping (not exactly striking definately not grappling :P) so it must be INCREDIBLE!

But we all know this isnt exactly the case, all styles have merits but i thought i might just let some folk know that there is Groundfighting in KF (including for if someone downs you AND follows up by going on top, though i admit that part is lacking) and there is grappling in KF.

There is also grappling and groundfighting in Tai Chi and other internal styles.

Not forgetting chinese fast wrestlings grappling is included in a lot of kung fu systems.

and lastly i might say that soon the YMAA (i just cant stop mentioning them! i need a 7 steps program or something :P.. oh arent my jokes wonderfull...) is releasing either a book or video, though im not sure which, on wrestling applications within Tai Chi.

So remember folks. If Grappling is superior, or groundfighting is superior. Then BJJ and Kung Fu styles are equal.

never joined these discussions...should I now

nah...

enjoy!

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May the force be with y'all.

“	Originally Posted By: Zipwolf I beleive this is my first original posting! hoorah!	”

Hmmm...not exactly original.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

lol, i meant original in the sense that its my own post. not that its a comment not made before. i usually refrain from making my own posts because i find it hard to put out the point im trying to make. my own posts are usually questions

I think you, like many, are missing the point some of the members are trying to make. Don't worry, I was there too!

Some folk will indeed say that Grappling is way better than any Kung Fu or striking art. However, I don't think there are many of those people on this site. What IS being said is that, "Its superior to fight in the range your opponent is not comfortable in".

So if you have someone who feels most comfortable throwing kicks, then you close the distance to punch/clinch/takedown/grapple. If someone is comfortable on the ground grappling, then you defend yourself from going down and flail your limbs like a madman. It all stems from putting yourself at an advantage and your opponent at a disadvantage.

The other issue commonly raised is the existance of grappling and/or groundfighting in Chinese Martial Arts. The reason this is questioned is because very few practice this regularly. Instead many just stay standing and say that they are working on something that can be applied from the ground even if they do not get down there themselves.

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

hmm.. thats odd of them, to apply things on the ground is a lot different to standing.

A person who trains in most KF styles SHOULD (im not saying they do) get comfortable with the parts of the art they are LEAST naturally comfortable with, its like guitaring, if you play lead well but cant do chords, work on chords while maintaining your natural ability. although doing this can be hard, if you do do this then youll get better overall.

see what i mean about finding it hard to make the point i am trying to

either way though, a lot of kung fu styles DO TRAIN grappling and groundfighting, and i seriously hope they train in this thoroughly as well as striking. even though their ways of doing these things are different.

What unites both is space gives us the ability to move, a center gives direction. Take away space to limit movement. Take away the center so there is no direction of force.

We can be explorers to find out what is already there and how it works within our art. Who ever said there is only striking or chin na or ground work in this or that art is because that is their awarness not that it is not there we just have not discovered it yet.

So some may pick and choose from different systems and the time they give has results or the time spent in one complete art containing both healing and martial has results (gung fu, time and energy). It is all choice and depends on the the center what direction it travels. Some arts are so huge it can take lifetimes to reach discovery others can be mastered quickly but does not answer the big questions one may have. So we can do the work of a thousand lifes in one lifetime if we choose to or look at the temporary situation and be happy with that.

OK here's my take.

You may be a race car driver and a fantastic one. But just because you have had to drive or just back up a big ol Uhaul truck on occasion does not mean you are a truck driver.
You can't manuever a tractor trailer around sharp corners or back one up for a quarter mile down a small alley or take one across country.
Not unless you take time to learn the specifics and the feel of the thing.

Now you may never, ever get downed by an opponant.
You may have some viable skills available that do come from your kungfu ie chin na and Shuai Jiao.

Skilled grapplers know this and many Grapplers are very good at not letting strikers, strike.
Yes you can win but you have to be Much Much better at what you do than he is at what he does becaus by its very nature grappling smothers and make striking very difficult. And I dont believe its wise to play the chin na game with someone who specializes in it.

So rather than discuss the maybe's or what people want to believe. I think everyone here should shut up and go try, then express an oppinion.
Seriously some of you have tried before and your experiences are what they are.
But most have no idea what they are talking about and I am NOT a grappler by trade. But I have been on both sides of this argument. I have taken out a lot of skilled MA'ist grappling. AND I have been snuffed a few times trying to grapple someone that had real good kungfu and thats still not saying much because my grappling is mediocre at best.

Ultimately I think it comes down you you Being WAY better at your game than the other person is at theirs. When you look at it like that its similar to the argument about witch Style of kungfu is better.

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One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

What about the semi-grappling styles like Wing Chun, and the grappling styles Taiji, Bagua, Shuai Jiao, etc. BJJ came from Kosen Judo, which heavily has been influenced or founded on other Jiu Jitsu styles. In the end, you would find that it's how individuals personally train, not only "what style". A guy "studying wrestling" without doing it will fail exactly as easily against a limbo Taiji guy who really trains fighting with serious guys going at it, as a limbo Taiji guy who "studies Taiji" not doing the typical training fails against a wrestler who wrestles. What people in their anti-kung-fu vendetta forget (or, never knew) is that people like Mike Patterson described their training with old-fashioned masters as really brutal, all the time getting really injured to make a point on how to fight, or how not to. They were going at it, not exchanging theories on five animals' secondary elements. It's no surprise that he won all his fights against Thai pros in their own game, in their own stadium, doing Xingyi. Same applies for people really PRACTICING CMA grappling. You get as good as you train seriously, unless you are extremely gifted. A little talent is of course necessary, so a fool training "seriously" kung-fu grappling will be a fool. It's like not everyone becomes a rocket scientist. And the son of a rocket scientist not necessarily becomes a good one either. And with all the scam artists on the market, chances are you find one of them before you ever find one who really does what he says.

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"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	Originally Posted By: Nik What about the semi-grappling styles like Wing Chun, and the grappling styles Taiji, Bagua, Shuai Jiao, etc. BJJ came from Kosen Judo, which heavily has been influenced or founded on other Jiu Jitsu styles. In the end, you would find that it's how individuals personally train, not only "what style". A guy "studying wrestling" without doing it will fail exactly as easily against a limbo Taiji guy who really trains fighting with serious guys going at it, as a limbo Taiji guy who "studies Taiji" not doing the typical training fails against a wrestler who wrestles. What people in their anti-kung-fu vendetta forget (or, never knew) is that people like Mike Patterson described their training with old-fashioned masters as really brutal, all the time getting really injured to make a point on how to fight, or how not to. They were going at it, not exchanging theories on five animals' secondary elements. It's no surprise that he won all his fights against Thai pros in their own game, in their own stadium, doing Xingyi. Same applies for people really PRACTICING CMA grappling. You get as good as you train seriously, unless you are extremely gifted. A little talent is of course necessary, so a fool training "seriously" kung-fu grappling will be a fool. It's like not everyone becomes a rocket scientist. And the son of a rocket scientist not necessarily becomes a good one either. And with all the scam artists on the market, chances are you find one of them before you ever find one who really does what he says.	”

excellent post.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

True, I have been searching for good instructors but, I didn't find any yet. So I just stay at my friends dojo(he teaches Wing Chun). But even if there are many scams there are also many good ones...I hope.

“	BJJ came from Kosen Judo, which heavily has been influenced or founded on other Jiu Jitsu styles.	”

Not really, Maeda was with the Kodokan, he wasn't a Kosen representative. It's not like technique wise there's a huge difference between Judo, BJJ and Kosen, the difference is just the range they chose to emphasise.

"According to my sources" (who lived in Japan and fluently speak Japanese), Maeda learned Kosen Judo (big long thread on Cyberkwoon.com). Whatever Judo it was, it was founded on Jiu Jitsu and Aiki styles, not fresh air, the point is that BJJ came from ugly "TMA". Point Judo fighters might not be able to pull anything (although looking at some I won't like to find out) or everything learned by oldsters, but the father-in-law of a friend (owner of Cyberkwoon, living in Japan as a MA teacher) who is a highly ranked Judoka who learned "Judo" (his version) from pre-WWII military pulled some pretty nasty things in a blink like drinking water. He was also extraordinarily powerful. Everyone who trains that "dead" serious gains also dead serious abilities. This looks a lot more impressive and real than much funky groovy stuff you see here and there. Helio would agree. BTW, I chose "oldfashioned" Judo as an example for "old-fashioned" of the really oldfashioned training people vs. "modern" hip lifestyle folks picking everything here and there to be "really successful". What I saw of those guys doesn't make me convinced that someone who can do half good kicking and striking and half good grappling is always the so much superior to the guy who can do either thing like the people I really call experts in the field. Which aren't two-times a week hobby guys.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	"According to my sources" (who lived in Japan and fluently speak Japanese), Maeda learned Kosen Judo (big long thread on Cyberkwoon.com).	”

OK, I'll defer to the Japanese on that then.

“	Whatever Judo it was, it was founded on Jiu Jitsu and Aiki styles, not fresh air, the point is that BJJ came from ugly "TMA".	”

You say that like it's some sort of revelation.

FYI: I read up the thread, and it turns out that Maedas version of Kodokan Judo concentrating on ground fighting was nicknamed "Kosen Judo" later. Both has been originally Kodokan, with Kodokan later regulating the use of groundfighting so not everyone became pure groundfighter, forgetting the art of throwing. Maeda learned Kodokan Judo earlier than those limitations (1897-1904), so he learned the full groundfighting art.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.