Kung Fu Students in Karate/Open Competitions

Our school is only a year old so we have all beginners. Yet in tournaments in our area, our students got trophies in their first competitions. We have no CMA tourneys to go to (except maybe Midland in the spring) so we are up against karate and tko katas in the forms competition. The judges seemed to be blown away seeing an 8 year old white sash flying through bung bo like he means business! In the last tourney of the year, my sifu's 4 year old got first place with bung bo! We knew he mangled it spots but because he kept with it without a pause (like he knew what he was doing) he got the trophy.

It seems our forms are more complex than the hard styles of MA. There were maybe two judges that came from a taichi/kungfu background in the three tournaments we competed in. Our sifu warned us that sometimes it's difficult to place because hard style judges think our forms are too flowery. He's made us understand that we just direct the energy differently. I think this came out in competition.

I was disappointed after I saw sparring at the CMA tourney in Midland. It looked pretty much the same as in the Karate/open tourneys. If you learn CMA techniques, shouldn't you use as many as are allowed by the rules Otherwise, why learn them

Have any of the TCMA's out there had any experience like this

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Well, not TCMA but our system is too harmful to be used in a tournament, and we used to go to karate tournaments in the past but my Sensei got mad because a lot of us were set up by c...pt judges and those tournaments do not show what our system is capable of, maybe the same as TCMA in a karate or TKD tournament. Our forms are not as stylish as TCMA forms but we do have a tiger form and Lama Sam is related to some forms of Kung Fu.

just a quick question, a four year old isn't guaranteed some type of trophy when competing

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"Today not possible, Tomorrow possible" - Eternal Grand Master Lee

"Brace yourself, SOMETHING is going to break"

I have actually been considering going to some local Karate Tournaments...but have yet to get around to it. I had a bad enough experience with politics when I was a JMA, so who knows how goofy it will be as a CMA.

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"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Originally Posted By: Beraducci just a quick question, a four year old isn't guaranteed some type of trophy when competing	”

Depends how big the draw in that age group...

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Me and my husband do a few Karate tournaments a year, along with a few other from our school, and always have a great time. (and win large beautiful trophies!) Everyone has always been really nice and respectful, and you should see them when my husband does whip chain!

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Si hoc non legere potes tu asinus es

“	Originally Posted By: TaichiMantis If you learn CMA techniques, shouldn't you use as many as are allowed by the rules Otherwise, why learn them	”

... for situations that don't have rules

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"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally Posted By: Fu-Pau ... for situations that don't have rules	”

Uh yes, that would be real life. I'm talking about how people spar in competition.

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Under stress you fall back to what you feel most comfortable with. Consiquently it mostly all looks alike. I noticed it a lot at the Kuoshu tournament I went to a couple of years ago. In the Lei Tai division you had primarily CMA trained guys. Most of them came out using what looked like CMA techniques (low stances, flanking, flowing manuevers, ect...) but after about 20-30 seconds it all went out of the window (except for a few).

What it boils down to is training to use your stuff so much that it becomes ingrained in your brain. That happens by doing a LOT of slow movement still-sparring, and slowly progressing by moving faster and faster.

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"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell

“	Well, not TCMA but our system is too harmful to be used in a tournament,	”

Jeeeez... no comment.

“	Under stress you fall back to what you feel most comfortable with.	”

Very true.

“	Consiquently it mostly all looks alike.	”

Not necessarily. What it boils down to in the instance being referred to is plain inexperience. People who train in certain arts and do not get to a certain level of experience tend to resort to simple non form punching and kicking when under stress. This is what is happening. It's not that the TCMA people are resorting to using JMA style techniques, it's that most ALL of them are resorting to going on instinct and throwing technique out the window. This is a direct by-product of lack of practical application and hands-on experience, i.e. hard sparring.

“	What it boils down to is training to use your stuff so much that it becomes ingrained in your brain.	”

Exactly.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Our schools experience with Tae Kwon Do-open tournaments (The tournaments are almost always held by TKD schools, but sometimes we are invited.)

- Sparring. We usually break even. The reason for this is that there are a TON of rules in TKD tournaments. Imagine training almost exclusively using open hand strikes, then being told you can't use them. Hard eh None of our kicks are above the waist, yet it's illegal to kick below the belt in TKD tournaments. So considering how many rules are imposed on us, I don't think we do that bad.

- Forms. We clean up. And the reason for this is two-fold. 1) Our forms are MUCH more complex, powerful, and exciting to watch. 2) The judges are nearly ALL Tae Kwon Do judges. Imagine how hard it is for them to judge our forms! If a TKD student messes up a TKD form, even slighty, they'll know it. I can totally mess up the form, start doing moves on the fly, and as long as I still keep my balance and power, I'll probably win. (Exception: One tournament, a fellow student of mine and a TKD guy were tied for forms. So the judges had them both do their forms again. Well my fellow student had messed up near the end of the crane form the first time he performed it. When he did it again, he did it correctly. The judges noticed, and he got second place.)

But in all honesty, I don't have any desire to compete in tournaments anyway. I've never gone to ANY tournament

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Brutal honesty fosters brutality more than honesty.

Speaking from the other side of the court, I would say that the best thing to do is to go to the tournament first and go and see for yourself what's going on. Myself as a karate dude, I am most impressed with CMA forums. Most karate katas tend to become boring!!!!!

“	Originally Posted By: ThraxDalgren Our schools experience with Tae Kwon Do-open tournaments (The tournaments are almost always held by TKD schools, but sometimes we are invited.) - Sparring. We usually break even. The reason for this is that there are a TON of rules in TKD tournaments. Imagine training almost exclusively using open hand strikes, then being told you can't use them. Hard eh None of our kicks are above the waist, yet it's illegal to kick below the belt in TKD tournaments. So considering how many rules are imposed on us, I don't think we do that bad.	”

This is true, however, there is more to be said here. Its all about the specific person. Yes we can't kick below the belt, and we can't even punch to the head, a rule that is different in the ATA than in Olympic style. This is how I constantly train. When I go and compete against Kung-Fu or any other guys, however, I can hold my own. Sure I get punched in the head more often, but every single time i kick one in the head they don't believe it either. It is all about the skill of the specific person. If you have a few guys that go to open tournaments and they are extremely skillful i would expect them to hold their own no matter what the rules are.
and by the way, I spar open handed all the time and judges don't say anything.

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"Today not possible, Tomorrow possible" - Eternal Grand Master Lee

"Brace yourself, SOMETHING is going to break"

“	Originally Posted By: Beraducci by the way, I spar open handed all the time and judges don't say anything.	”

That just depends on the rules of the tournament. At one tournament we were at, a student had down an open hand palm strike to the torso of the TKD guy. He got a warning.

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Brutal honesty fosters brutality more than honesty.

October 2004 Kung Fu Magazine article, text from:
http://www.bakshaolineagleclaw.com/ikf_open.htm


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Pride. Acceptance. Stubbornness. Why would a Chinese stylist compete in open sport karate tournaments

How about…to dispel myths.

It has long been ‘known' on the sport karate circuit that Chinese style competitors do not fair well in forms or fighting divisions at open competitions. If that is not enough to motivate a Chinese stylist to enter and win the next possible open sport karate tournament, then what is Perhaps it is the opportunity to compete at a greater number of top-level tournaments against a variety of challenging competitors Perhaps for the satisfaction of rocking heads in areas that have yet to see real kung fu fighters, and will benefit from seeing the true strength of Chinese martial arts Perhaps just for extra training

T
ournaments provide opportunities to evolve technique, develop fighting, stoke competitive fire, and gain experience in defeating opponents strategically. Truly it is the skillful means of your martial art that brings victory at sport karate tournaments. If the purpose of attending tournaments is to further your development as a martial artist, then why limit yourself to a particular set In fact, as Bak Shaolin Eagle Claw International has demonstrated, different types of tournaments can be used as tools to hone different techniques of fighting that, when reintegrated, evolve overall fighting ability.

Chinese stylists arriving at a karate tournament may face hostility, derision, scorn, amusement, and curiosity from the good old boys already present. Many believe that Chinese style competitors should stay in the wushu and soft forms divisions if they even bother to show up. They think that kung fu cannot adapt their style and strategy for point sparring divisions. That their flowery, circular and gymnastic type forms are not suited for the hard style divisions. That they are not tough enough for continuous sparring divisions. Obviously, none of these martial artists have been in a Chinese style full contact sparring division, or ever stepped foot onto a lei tei.


Enter the mythbusters: Bak Shaolin Eagle Claw International.

This school of kung fu, under the direction of Grandmaster Leung Fu and national coach Sifu Dana Daniels, has been rocking the sport karate world for years. With bases in Olympia, WA, Seattle, Madison, WI, Austin, TX, Galway, Ireland, Bloomington, IN, Los Angeles and local branches all over the US, this group of hard hitting martial artists takes on all competitors in all divisions of forms and fighting. The US Bak Shaolin Eagle Claw National Team has produced top rankings in forms and fighting in both the National Blackbelt League (NBL) and the International Martial Arts Council (IMAC), as well as being a dominant force in Jesse Palmer's Northwest Martial Arts Association--the preeminent sanction in the Northwest.

Chinese stylists can and will defeat their karate counterparts in forms and fighting at open competitions, but there are obstacles to overcome in addition to the other competitors. Strategies and techniques must be adjusted, not due to effectiveness, but rather to the rules of certain leagues and locales. Even more challenging is the task of overcoming bias and ignorance in some judges.

Most Chinese stylists excel at soft forms competition, but for a student from a kung fu school to win open and hard style forms (kata) competition he or she must adapt to the division. The first step in any forms competition is choosing a form. Always go with your best form. Some circular and aerial forms do not always score well in a hard style division, as judges are looking for an overwhelming display of power, deadly strikes and accuracy. They may feel that the form is not ‘hard' enough. Where most styles of kung fu focus on an internal energy, many hard style judges are looking for a display of external energy. Shouts and a focus on power over continuous speed will allow any good hard style judge to see past the individual's style and recognize quality. Note that good kung fu always has power; all that is necessary is to change the flavor of demonstrating that power. Slow the pace of the form and select specific strikes and techniques to emphasize; this makes the form ‘intelligible' to hard-style judges.

In an open and soft forms competition, Chinese stylists must be wary of the judges. An open forms division with five hard style judges is already biased against kung fu forms, and entering meekly is a waste of time for a martial artist competing with a soft style form. The best course of action is to demand that soft style judges be added to the panel. The same applies to Grand Champion divisions. Demand that tournament officials make the division ‘Open' as it is labeled. Certainly keep an eye out for soft style divisions as well. Ensure that soft stylists are judging the division. Over time, as officials come to recognize the strength of your kung fu, there is a ‘warming effect' wherein some biases dissolve, as your style becomes more familiar. With representatives of different styles judging the division, Bak Shaolin competitors have routinely won hard, open, and soft forms competitions with traditional forms that display true kung fu power.


Chinese stylists will also often have forms that are larger and take more room than the kata of karate stylists. These forms are, consequently, very impressive, and provide the Chinese stylist with a chance to assert themselves onto the judges. Always inform the judges that the form will move beyond the boundaries in a firm, respectful, and take-no-**** fashion; this opportunity for exchange with the judges gives the competitor an opportunity to impress them before he even begins his form. Understanding how to turn the apparent disadvantages of difference into an advantage is the key overcoming bias and hostility.

In point sparring competitions at open sport karate tournaments many Chinese stylists lose on points, get penalized excessively or get disqualified. Frustration sets in and eventually they decide to stick to their traditional Chinese tournaments, which reinforces the belief that Chinese stylists ‘can't do points'.

As with the forms competitions, Chinese style competitors must adapt to their division and overcome biased judging. Top point sparring competitors in the open sport karate circuit play a good game. If their opponent does not know the rules of the game, they take full advantage. Strategy, maneuverability, range, timing and clarity of technique are the keys to point sparring. Chinese stylists, used to Chinese continuous or full-contact, often attempt to close, or bridge, the gap with their opponent and come in heavy, while a seasoned point fighter will use the opportunity to score while retreating. Continually running into front-leg sidekicks and being separated by the center judge can baffle, frustrate and enrage a fighter used to rough, continuous fighting. As in forms divisions, the key is to understand ‘the game' of point fighting as it is played in open sport karate today.


The first area to consider is targeting, with everything below the waist and the back as non-scoring areas, leg kicks and low techniques are of little use for scoring points. The most visible target is the head/helmet and the side of the waist between the hip-bone and the ribs. These targets are usually in full view, unlike the middle of the chest, which is obscured by the fighter's guard and/or back. By selecting techniques that target visible areas, the techniques and points scored are made more visible. The popping sound of a glove hitting a helmet is worth more than an obstructed view of three muffled punches to the chest. A popular point fighting slogan is: “You've got to come out on top,” meaning that when two points are scored simultaneously, the decision usually goes to the point scored on the higher target as it is more visible.

Secondly, consider that while judges might penalize a fighter for excessive contact and rough behavior for using the circular punches and qua sau that are fundamental in kung fu, there are corollary techniques that are perfectly legal. The classic example is when Bak Shaolin fighters were being penalized for circular hitting to the helmet (a legal target), it was not because the technique itself was out-of-control or excessive. It simply looked too rough and too continuous to be proper point fighting in the eyes of the judges. A quick read of their rule book will tell you that a ridgehand (under- or over-hand) is not only legal, but encouraged. Most kung fu styles have some form of ridgehand, or the qua sau can be modified to strike with the side of the hand to the helmet. Make it a crisp popping strike and the points start rolling in. Adapt kung fu techniques to the flavor of the game of point-fighting and they are forced to accept them.


Finally, point fighters do not use that many techiniques: go to any point tournament and you will probably see 90% of all the techniques currently in play: the front leg sidekick to the waist, the double roundhouse to chest and head, the backfist (with cross), and the spinning sidekick. Where point fighters excel is their use of range, timing, and control of ring motion to execute their techniques. For a kung fu fighter used to taking a hit in exchange for getting close enough to go to work on their opponent, point fighting is a different beast that is hard to ride. The first lesson the kung fu man has to get through his head: do not charge into your opponent's attack. The front-leg sidekick is perhaps the most-used technique in point fighting. Once you learn how to deal with that, you can start to operate in the ring. One way is to break the sidekick down. Off-lining and moving around the kick can also work. Or deliberately draw the sidekick out, and counter. The other commonly used techniques can be similarly dissected and defused, or assimilated.

Continuous point fighting is generally semi-contact, which means that KOs usually result in a DQ for the kung fu competitor. Points are tallied continuously throughout the fight. Unlike Chinese continuous, which calls for an all-out, take them down approach, continuous point demands a certain rhythm. Kung fu competitors are usually warned constantly for excessive contact. So make no mistake, continuous sparring is heavier than point sparring, and, depending on the center judge and the competitors, can often get much heavier. However, it is not the semi-full contact that Chinese stylists are used to. The way their rules are set no more than three punches can be thrown without a kick or a break. The fighters who excel in this type of fighting dominate the rhythm of the fight with their own pattern of kick-1-2-3-kick-1-2-3-etc. This rhythm is present in some kung fu forms and can be adapted for use in the ring. Most Chinese stylists will have to develop past their tendency to use only hands once they close. As in point fighting, control of range so that kicks and punches are effective is a must. Once again, it comes down to adapting to your division and knowing the rules. And knowing when you are being cheated because of your kung fu uniform!


Training for open karate competitions takes patience and diligence. A kung fu stylist cannot hope to learn all the nuances of ‘the game' in one outing. To learn their game, you must play their game. Aside from fitness and traditional training, the competitor should identify roughly 5 techniques and 3 combos to train. These should be trained solo for clarity and form, with partners for range and targeting, as shadow-sparring for motion, and in free-sparring for application. By sticking close to a small ‘set' of techniques, the principle of KISS is adhered to, and it pays in the ring. At first it may be difficult and frustrating, especially the sparring divisions where real life applications must be modified for legal usage in the ring. In the end Chinese stylists will benefit from competition in the open circuit. Competition encourages a martial artist to improve, learn and adapt. Although the number of traditional Chinese tournaments has increased of late, there are still relatively few opportunities to compete before top-level Chinese style masters. In the meantime, the example of Bak Shaolin Eagle Claw may stand as an example to other Chinese stylists; perhaps an influx of kung fu competitors into the sport karate circuit will lead to the next evolution of open martial arts in America.

Under the tutelage of Grandmaster Leung Fu and national coach Dana Daniels, Bak Shaolin Eagle Claw International has proven that Chinese style competitors can play the open sport karate game and win while staying true to traditional Chinese kung fu.

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“	Question Authority. Question Society. Question Reality. Question Yourself. Question your conclusions, your judgments, your answers. Question this. If you question everything thoroughly enough, the truth will eventually hit you upside the head and you will know. But here’s a warning: It won’t be what you imagined. It won’t be even close.	”

all hail Martyr Fakka