Who should really concentrate on forms?

Who should really concentrate on forms- a teacher or practitioner

The reason why I ask this is twofold-

1. To see why there is such a heavy emphasis on forms.
2. Is the emphasis really needed

If you look at the actual structure of a form, it is a reference manual of sorts. It has key concepts and techniques, all embedded in a nice structure.

However, I wonder who truly needs to have forms A teacher will obviously need forms because they are entrusted with the responsibility of facilitating the system to future generations. But what about someone who is not concerned with teaching Do they really need forms, or I should say, the entire forms syllabus that a system offers For these people, I would say that they might need maybe one or two forms, tops. I would say that if they have a core form that suits them well, and maybe the systems principle hei gung form, this is all a practitioner would need. If a single form has hei gung and fighting, even better- less to memorize and more to work on. If they find a weapon that they like, more power to them. If not, no big deal.

One of the key concerns that I see is that too many forms are overwhelming when coupled with practical application. It is very hard, some would argue impossible, to exhaust the fighting methods of one form, much less several. So if the practical side of things is being addressed, why would there need to be so many forms What are these other forms addressing that the core form(s) are not I feel that a lot of it stems from the commercial aspects of MA, and it's a way to get you to sign on the dotted line so that you will keep your tuition coming . In my own experience, there is not a SINGLE minor form in Hung Kuen that addresses issues extraneous to the core forms. You might find a technique variation in some, but it's nothing to write home about.

So overall, I don't understand why there is such a huge focus on forms when it is clear that a lot of schools are not expounding on the functional side of things. What is the point of moving on to another form when you have not successfully explored the forms you have What is the point of having tons of forms when you are not planning on passing on the system Some people are clearly focused on the fighting side of things, what good is 10 forms going to do for this person

What do y'all think

Peace

Well for us/ me. I too do not understand what all this forms are for. Many are just there as a tradition, so to speak. Yet they hold no validity for actual fighting.

We are a system with one form. It is required to learn if you wish to pass on our system.

As for those schools that incorporate all these forms just to keep the student "hungry", is a damn shame. Hopefully these students will see the light before it gets dark.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

Good topic...should be an interesting read.

Since the only art I study that has a form is Tai chi....I'll just linger for a bit here

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If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

“	Originally Posted By: x893 Good topic...should be an interesting read. Since the only art I study that has a form is Tai chi....I'll just linger for a bit here	”

How do you think it would work in Tai Ji, say if a person only wanted to fight How could you approach it in Tai Ji Even though most systems of Tai Ji have only one or two hand forms, they are very long. So what is in one Tai Ji form would encompass several forms in other systems. So the technique content is definitely there.

Peace

I'd say nowadays the teacher doesn't really need the forms either. There's plenty of examples of good teachers im MA who don't know any forms.

Tai chi is one of the few arts that I would say really needs the form. The form is the foundation of techniques and training exercises for power and movement/flow.

Teaching it in pieces or technique by technique like Jujutsu/Judo would really take away from that art.

But most arts.....I dont think "forms" per se are necessary. One could simply take the techniques out and teach them/drill them.

__________________
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

“	Originally Posted By: x893 Tai chi is one of the few arts that I would say really needs the form. The form is the foundation of techniques and training exercises for power and movement/flow. Teaching it in pieces or technique by technique like Jujutsu/Judo would really take away from that art. But most arts.....I dont think "forms" per se are necessary. One could simply take the techniques out and teach them/drill them.	”

So how would one train somebody who strictly wanted to fight using Tai Ji Say the person wasn't interested in forms.

Peace

“	But most arts.....I dont think "forms" per se are necessary. One could simply take the techniques out and teach them/drill them.	”

I went through a period of transition where I learned forms, then went through the change of considering forms useless, now, for the past 3 years have been leaning more towards the value in them again. I guess that comes from me teaching and having been expose to more "newbies", or people with little or no experience.

I feel that forms are very valuable tool, but as X said, they are simply drilling moves and these moves can be done independently and in a vacuum.

By doing the drills in a predetermined form I see two benefits.

1.) The learning of flow. This can't be done drilling techniques in a vacuum.

2.) Neglect of certain techniques. Many people tend to have strong points and weak points. When they train they keep doing their strong stuff so their strong gets stronger and their weak points stay weak. For many people it's hard to break out of that mold. Someone who does a technique sloppily or incorrectly may not drill that technique because they do not like it as much or do not see the value in it therefore they won't spend the time with it necessary to build it. When that technique is included in a form with many others, then ALL techniques get equal time and no technique should be developed stronger than any others if the student trains the form consistently.

It's obvious that forms are a great way to remember and catalogue techniques. They are also very good at building strength and coordination, especially in younger people.

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

To Illusionfists post:

They wouldnt.

LOL.

Seriously...if I was a tai chi expert/teacher....they would have to go through the form. Hell...it's only one long form....it's not that bad to learn. LOL

But if they insisted...they would need some serious moving chi kung drills to practice for months in advance. Some sort of prerequisite to get them up to a certain level.


StormMountain teaches tai chi....maybe we should ask him if he would do it And how



And to Cam's post....very nicely said

__________________
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

I wanted to expound a little bit on a point I made above...

“	2.) Neglect of certain techniques. Many people tend to have strong points and weak points. When they train they keep doing their strong stuff so their strong gets stronger and their weak points stay weak. For many people it's hard to break out of that mold. Someone who does a technique sloppily or incorrectly may not drill that technique because they do not like it as much or do not see the value in it therefore they won't spend the time with it necessary to build it.	”

This is a phenomenon that is probably nurtured by and indigenous to the way we train at Team Praxis and other MMA type schools.
We do a LOT of sparring and hands on, full resistance drilling. We have never done forms, so to speak. Because most of the training is done in a competitive manner, people will always fall back to using what works for them because they want to be successful, especially when there is a strong sense of competitive nature in the atmosphere. When our guys are sparring they all tend to have certain techniques that they all depend upon more than others and they use these techniques constantly. That's what I mean by "strong getting stronger and the weak stays weak". Sometimes we have to actually build drills around people working specifically on their weak points. If I have a guy who is tapping everyone with leg locks I will tell him "no more leglocks". I find myself doing this often, telling people to not stay on ther back or on top, not relying on certain submissions, etc...

When I was learning (training myself) I always forced myself to work on my weaker aspects. Now that I am teaching more I find that most people will not force trhemselves to do that and I feel that it's adirect result of the competitve environment we have where everyone wants to stick to using what works for them.

I am seriously considering (no, already decided to...) adding 3 forms to our curriculum. One will be very basic, and look almost like an elementary (early belt level) karate kata that simply developes good stance and hip rotation. The intermediate one will actually consist of actual practical techniques such as punches, kicks, angular movement, penetration steps, sprawls, etc. and the advanced one will be an actual 2 man drill where both guys work together but flow with no resistance throughout all ranges of a fight.

I am working on putting these forms together and will probably elicit the input from quite a few of my students and training partners.

Any thoughts on this

(sorry to inadvertently hijack your thread, I-Fist!!)

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

Sounds like a good idea. Especially the 2 man drill/form. You could configure to include all of the aspects that you see members are weak in.

Often in Judo and Jujutsu schools there are "randori plays" (as they are often called). Kind of a like a little dance.

You grab the uke, the uke then begins to resist and pull/push in a prearranged pattern. Tori must then execute specific techniques based on almost realistic resistance.

It really helps develop timing because it will be very easy for you to see if they missed that key point in time....simply because they'll have to really pull or push significantly harder.

Sometimes only the uke will have the prearranged pattern of movements....and tori must adjust and "figure out" what techniques to do. That's the next step.


Never seen this with ne waza though....but shouldn't be that hard to develop. Usually the randori plays will end in one hold/choke/or lock...but never go further. But they could with some thought.

__________________
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara (sorry to inadvertently hijack your thread, I-Fist!!) Peace- Cam	”

No problem bro. I don't think you are hijacking it at all. I think this is getting at the crux of why forms should or shouldn't be used.

Peace

“	Sometimes only the uke will have the prearranged pattern of movements....and tori must adjust and "figure out" what techniques to do. That's the next step.	”

Actually, when I am rolling with my students that's exactly how I approach it. I feed them "opportunities" and I see whether or not they see the opportunoty and take advantage of it and how effectively. In the form I am talking about developing it will involve less then 5% resistance, if any at all.

“	Never seen this with ne waza though....but shouldn't be that hard to develop. Usually the randori plays will end in one hold/choke/or lock...but never go further. But they could with some thought.	”

Actually the form will start on the feet, involve some punching and kicking, clinch work including knees and elbows, maybe a low level shot or two countered by some sprawls or clinchwork again, then finally to the ground where there will be no submissions, only attempts. Then the other partner will execute the counter and/or escape and transition into a naturally flowing position from there, and so on and so on...

“	No problem bro. I don't think you are hijacking it at all. I think this is getting at the crux of why forms should or shouldn't be used.	”

Cool!

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Actually, when I am rolling with my students that's exactly how I approach it. I feed them "opportunities" and I see whether or not they see the opportunoty and take advantage of it and how effectively. In the form I am talking about developing it will involve less then 5% resistance, if any at all	”

Glad you approach things that way, very few do these days.

If I may, why do you want to utilize so little resistance

“	Actually the form will start on the feet, involve some punching and kicking, clinch work including knees and elbows, maybe a low level shot or two countered by some sprawls or clinchwork again, then finally to the ground where there will be no submissions, only attempts. Then the other partner will execute the counter and/or escape and transition into a naturally flowing position from there, and so on and so on...	”

Best way to do it in my opinion.

And for those who have specific weak areas...perhaps drilling this form would indeed help. At the very least it may get those specific techniques in their memory/mind more....perhaps then it would feel more natural and they would improve drastically.

I think you've got a good idea there. And even if there was little improvement...it wouldnt take so much time away whereas to be a hindrance in any way.

__________________
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.
-Zen proverb

From the pine tree
Learn of the pine tree.
And from the bamboo
of the bamboo
-Basho

“	If I may, why do you want to utilize so little resistance	”

Well, the object is to build muscle memory so they will need to perform the techniques in the from absolutely correctly. If they go up against resistance, they may still pull it off but it will be sloppy, in turn, building sloppy muscle memory.

Of course this will depend on the level of the 2 practitioners doing the form/drill.
If they are advanced, they will probably add just enough resistance with each other to make it seem more "real".

Then you have the beginners... as soon as they feel any kind of resistance they want to turn it into a sparring match and go full speed... then the whole idea goes out the window!!! LOL!

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."