What makes a school a belt factory?

“	Originally Posted By: jawsman In any case, when my Sifu feels that I have made enough progession to test for brown..... I'd be more than willing to offer one of you guys the opportunity to stop me from advancement.	”

Wow, I've spent so much time helping people achieve their next rank that I think I would have a problem actually preventing someone from getting it.

Honestly, I think the only thing that getting your butt handed to you by a BB of another system proves is the existence of other practical styles.

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There are many paths at the base of the mountain but all who reach it's peak see the same moon.

“	Wow, I've spent so much time helping people achieve their next rank that I think I would have a problem actually preventing someone from getting it.	”

Look at it this way... if you prevented him from getting his belt then you probably exposed some weaknesses in his style and technique, and in turn, depending on how he accepts and uses that information, you may have helped him out more than by helping him get a belt. On the flip side, if you got your butt handed to you by a lower ranked guy from another system it should also expose a lot of things about your system and technique to you. Either way it should be a positive learning experience for all involved.

“	Honestly, I think the only thing that getting your butt handed to you by a BB of another system proves is the existence of other practical styles.	”

Exactly...

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Look at it this way... if you prevented him from getting his belt then you probably exposed some weaknesses in his style and technique, and in turn, depending on how he accepts and uses that information, you may have helped him out more than by helping him get a belt.	”

That I have no problems doing, it's just that I'd rather do that in private is all. I dunno, I suppose I just rather making sure the kid is ready for the next rank before testing is even an option. That way the testing is more of a public demonstartion of improvement. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

One of my favorite quotes -

New student - "When do we test for our rank"
Teacher - "Everytime you walk throught that door."

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There are many paths at the base of the mountain but all who reach it's peak see the same moon.

“	I dunno, I suppose I just rather making sure the kid is ready for the next rank before testing is even an option.	”

That's why testing against BBs from other styles is not a good idea. How would you know the kid was ready unless you were very familiar with the other style and the practitioner he was supposed to test against

Jawsman, how big are you I have some guys that would be glad to help you test... they aren't black belts yet, though... does that matter

Peace-
Cam

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Rock On!
Cam
"Raise up your mind....."

“	Originally Posted By: Lugaldamhara Look at it this way... if you prevented him from getting his belt then you probably exposed some weaknesses in his style and technique, and in turn, depending on how he accepts and uses that information, you may have helped him out more than by helping him get a belt. On the flip side, if you got your butt handed to you by a lower ranked guy from another system it should also expose a lot of things about your system and technique to you. Either way it should be a positive learning experience for all involved. Peace- Cam	”

Exactly.

“	Jawsman, how big are you I have some guys that would be glad to help you test... they aren't black belts yet, though... does that matter	”

Not that big at all. A little wide in the shoulders, but that's about it. Not sure about that last question. I'm guessing that decision is left up to my Sifu.

Not to sound like arrogant, but no one has been stopped from advancing yet.

Could it be that the opposition wasn't up to par Very well could be.

Or could it be that we are proficient in what WE do That's also a possibilty.

Either way, my chance for advancement won't happen for a few more years.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

“	New student - "When do we test for our rank" Teacher - "Everytime you walk throught that door."	”

Jaws: I'd be glad to spar with you, but I think we are too far away

Thanks for the offer. I'm sure there's a few people that would like to as well. Just to see if what we do is fluff, or not. In any case, I'm a few years away from testing so....

If someone is in my area at that time, I'd be more than happy to uphold my offer to get stomped by one of you guys.

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It's all about the nitty gritty.......

G-day everyone,
what makes a school a belt factory is when the Grand Master of that system values money over skill with his students. Telling people that grades don't mean a thing then carry on passing out ridiculesly high grades. Also grading without any form of sylubis, just handing out a grade for some sort of abstract reasoning and brainwashing the students into thinking that this is OK. Woh, I just answered why I left the Bujinkan and take up Kung Fu.
Yours trully
Chops.

“	Originally Posted By: David Chopping G-day everyone, what makes a school a belt factory is when the Grand Master of that system values money over skill with his students. Telling people that grades don't mean a thing then carry on passing out ridiculesly high grades. Also grading without any form of sylubis, just handing out a grade for some sort of abstract reasoning and brainwashing the students into thinking that this is OK. Woh, I just answered why I left the Bujinkan and take up Kung Fu.	”

David,

I think you made good points on everything above, but I do take some exception to your reference of grading without a syllabus. Many traditional systems don't have a specific syllabus. I've seen a lot of that in many of the Chinese and Indonesian arts, as that's my primary area of interest. Many traditional teachers taught in a very haphazard manner - the material was all taught, but the order wasn't by any means fixed. There was no syllabus. On a given day, you learned what the teacher wanted to share with you, and if such a teacher had a ranking system, he tested you based on what you know, not on the required curriculum for a given rank (i.e. just because you've got 10% of the system doesn't mean you have the "first" 10%). I wouldn't necessarily say that this type of teaching is either the exception or the rule. Just that it was very common in the past.

By contrast, most McDojos seem to have a pretty straightforward curriculum/syllabus, and if you can passably do the techniques listed on the piece of paper, you can test for and advance to the next rank (usually with a testing fee). Nothing beyond rote understanding of the contents of the curriculum are usually required in such a school, though.

As for your "grandmaster" comment - I'd be a little worried of anyone running a school who called themselves a grandmaster. That's a big warning flag to me. Everyone's a "grandmaster" these days. Either they just decide they're good enough to start calling themselves that, or they take a few years of training here and there (and over there) and put it together into their own streamlined system. By founding such a system (regardless of whether it offers anything new or even decent), they automatically become its grandmaster. The best teachers I've met still consider themselves students.

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“	If someone is in my area at that time, I'd be more than happy to uphold my offer to get stomped by one of you guys.	”

Jaws, are you in Hawaii Because I'd be very happy spending some time over there ah! and, of course, helping you a little bit with your test

“	Originally Posted By: kungfujoe David, I think you made good points on everything above, but I do take some exception to your reference of grading without a syllabus. Many traditional systems don't have a specific syllabus. I've seen a lot of that in many of the Chinese and Indonesian arts, as that's my primary area of interest. Many traditional teachers taught in a very haphazard manner - the material was all taught, but the order wasn't by any means fixed. There was no syllabus. On a given day, you learned what the teacher wanted to share with you, and if such a teacher had a ranking system, he tested you based on what you know, not on the required curriculum for a given rank (i.e. just because you've got 10% of the system doesn't mean you have the "first" 10%). I wouldn't necessarily say that this type of teaching is either the exception or the rule. Just that it was very common in the past.	”

There are also those schools that give belts once a student has been in the system for an amount of time without advancing, and the teacher just assumes the student has taken in what they've been taught.

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There is a school of Karate in Australia. A real belt factory (or Mc Dojo) if you will. A friend's nephew used to train in the State Headquarters Honbu Dojo. This style is called Go Kan Ryu (GKR for short). Pretty much you need no skill. You just go to class and every 3 months you do a grading in which you are guaranteed success. Is that a belt factory or what? I don't believe all MA schools are the same. I just know that this one branch of Karate gives Karate and in fact all martial arts a bad name.

“	Originally Posted By: Bluelock I was reading some older posts and saw some people use the term "belt factories". So, I'm just curious, what makes a school a belt factory Is this simply something due to the rapid conferring of black belts, or is there more to it What do you all consider "to fast" in terms of a person reaching a black belt	”

"Grandmaster" Sin The' (Shaolin Do's Grandmaster) makes a belt factory.......LMAO.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage

Seriously though, too many schools are becoming belt factories... These days people want to obtain a black belt and not put in the hard work for it. In the old days, it took time and effort to become a black belt. I'm only 28, but I miss the old days, haha. As I said GKR is a belt factory, you just pay your money and this is what you are entitled to. A black belt in 2 years, major lack of real self defensive skills, and an ego so big.... it's all a marketing scam. They even go door to door to try and sell their style. When I was in Australia (I'm currently training in China), I was teaching Hung Ga (Which I no longer teach), and they entered my kwoon wearing clothes with their logo and tried to sell to my students and even myself.

A schhol that gives out black belt/sashes in record time (2 yrs. or less IMO) and requires that you pay for every little thing (tests, belts, patches, etc....) and makes the student buy a patch for each and every belt/sash rank is in my book considered a belt factory/McDojo. Also when you have young adults that are 19 or 20 years of age and they are a high level rank such as a 5th or 6th degree black belt, this may be a belt factory. Be leary of this type school. Also when the teacher makes an outlandish claim that he can do this or that or that he was taught by some famous master and that only he was taught this rare style. Be leary.

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Mark
Liberalism is a mental disorder. -M. Savage