Ching Ping Jian (Straight Sword) Form One and Applications

yep'!

I only had a problem with the "back kick", not with the rest. Like I said, surprisingly good, when you saw other "demos".

On the lance partisans vs. green banner, well. First, I'd venture a guess that even an elite troop that is outnumbered like 100:1 would think "act as if nothing is wrong, then go for Tactical Retreat (TM)". Second, afaik the empress didn't have something against that march and even supported it. So, the regular troops probably weren't that eager to withstand.

The thing with sword stab vs. spear thrust (foot, body) is that enormous reach difference. A usual spear of the times of the straight sword is so much longer, that you hardly reach the body. Targetting the hands like this is hazardous, if you don't connect, you're dead. What you usually do vs. this kind of attack is a cross stab under the lance from a step back / side step to whip it up a bit, then you expect a tip fajing counter over the side to the head and take it over your head with a long scooping moveto the other side while stepping in quickly, grabbing the lance, and doing a tip stab crossing over, or turning over and reaching out (depending on the length of the lance). Which is already hard enough to do (if you play this kind of game, try it, it needs timing). The other choice is run, either away, or forward to pass the danger zone before you eat a fajing with the side. BTW, against good fighters, it's already hard enough to get out of the thrust with a simple sprawl, there is no time to tell whether it goes low so you can do that trick move, or goes up so you would get speared to the chest if you do it. Good fighters would exploit it with faking a low move and going high, in a blink. A friend of mine was so quick with his bamboo post "spear", there was not much chance. And he probably wasn't as good as his teachers (one of the De's).

Still, the applications that girl did were mostly good, let alone considering her age. However, I'm a fan of correct stuff, even playing.

BTW, target for jian is hands, then throat, then inside of legs (arteries), sometimes guttering the intestines (stab, pull, hold while bleeding out). Not fun.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

yep',...true,...but, all-in-all, the technique 'STILL' exists! Each warrior takes his/her own chances in the volly of techniques back-n-forth,...IMO 'the More Options, the better'. Plus, the FACT that MOST of us will NEVER get into an 'All-Out' spear,sword,monk's spade,tiger fork Fight anyway,...lol' The Exercise value of Doing all of those all-out cRaZy moves is great for body conditioning!

Seriously though, in my training, I WAS never told to turn my back under any circumstances against an opponent with a weapon and this is what we are talking about, Martial Arts are skills used in fighting in a military manner.

You can only hope for the best but you always deal with the threat before you before turning, no matter what some of the CMA guys are saying, it's plain stupidity to turn and kick backwards before neutralizing the threat within reach while facing somebody else who hasn't reached you yet. To proclaim such speaks inexperience and lack of real life knowledge, it's great in theory and idea, but were you to actually try that in real life, guess who walks away sound and with both legs? (hint, it's not the guy kicking blindly behind him)

Actually, you have MANY forms / moves in real-life styles turning around when having neutralized someone (i.e. put his weapon away or the guy himself) to take the next guy taking your back. You would all the time have to turn around and check your back even WITHOUT having killed your first opponent, if you have time for it. Plus there are moves where you take someone out because he is in the right position by turning your back on him close and stabbing him reaching around you while already looking the other direction for incoming fire. Not fine moves. This is for the one vs. many situations, when you face people using blunt weapons, or who aren't really trained.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	Originally Posted By: Nik Actually, you have MANY forms / moves in real-life styles turning around when having neutralized someone (i.e. put his weapon away or the guy himself) to take the next guy taking your back. You would all the time have to turn around and check your back even WITHOUT having killed your first opponent, if you have time for it. Plus there are moves where you take someone out because he is in the right position by turning your back on him close and stabbing him reaching around you while already looking the other direction for incoming fire. Not fine moves. This is for the one vs. many situations, when you face people using blunt weapons, or who aren't really trained.	”

Key words there, you don't turn your back on an incoming opponent and kick up a leg blindly.

There is also a massive difference between checking your back/various opponents and ignoring the one you are facing to face the ones who have not come at you yet.
This is with edged weapons after all, not fire arms so it's a different ball game and turning your back on a guy charging you, kicking up a leg blindly behind you and going at someone not yet in range is a fool's move.

I was against that kick from the get go.

It's more like closing in making it past the post, fix it, turn, look the other way while pulling poor guy into your sword and keeping him there while bleeding out. Crap moves. But that was normal. The version for blade vs. blade is run in and ram, keeping the arm while, you know.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

Aye, I know you were against it and I do agree with your points

I have heard of it used as an exercise for balance training... but, it is actually used as a counter balance. Not sure of the exact point of it's origin, but here's how it works. The higher you throw the leg, the lower the torso can go at a quick/fighting pace. It can be used as both attacker and defender purposes. It's really deceptive. When fighting with straight swords you can't stand still, you have to keep moving.

ex.) step forward right leg arrow stance slash from out to in with right hand. They block/parry and begin to come in wit a stab on you. You block, but hsift your weight to your back side (turning half circle counter clockwise) while lowering your torso, then from the block, kick up the back leg, using the energy from the counterclockwise twist, twist back the other way with a sideways slash. If the opponent is too close, instead of striking out using the full extent of the blade, allow the wrist to maintain natural position utilizing the entire side of the sword.

There's so many ways this technique can be used, but you get the idea. I would say this is probably used in extreme situations, but honestly, it's about balance and stability in the fight. The terrain your on, the plane of the ground, everything is a factor. So where and how your weight is distributed during combat depends on if this technique should be used. It also makes sens to use it as a defense against someone behind you... deceptive tactic.

but... the higher the leg, the lower the torso... the safer your internals.

Have you actually ever used that in real combat(or as close as can be managed for safety reasons)?

Just curious because those who do, will never do something so stupid.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Thanks for the insult though. Very gentleman of you. But to answer your worded question. Yes, I have fought full contact weapons for nearly a decade learning what works and what does not. And it's not my place, or yours, to say that any technique is stupid. if you don't like it, fine, but I'm pretty sure the guys whose used these techniques for real and put them in forms would hesitate to agree with you. It's not the "be all, end all" of sword techniques. It's just another one in your repertoire. It takes a greater degree of skill, but... it worked for me. Several times. When fighting, things move pretty quick and it comes unexpected. It's all about timing and distribution of weight as I said earlier.

My Shifu was a fencer as well as apart of the SCA. He brought in all the Chinese weapons. Di So Gee, 3 sectional, a monk spade (the bottom of a boogey board makes a nice curved blade), and of course we fought with Jian.

Spent a lot of time seeing what works and what does not... and from my experience, it's up to the user. I'm fast and flexible and have pretty good coordination... the technique worked for me. I had to go through a trial period of getting my leg slashed and taking some chops to the back... even got blasted by a dude with a hammer that slammed me in the ground face first, but I didn't give up until I learned how it worked. All I'm saying... is it works. I don't think it's stupid, but you have a right to your opinion. But for someone with such an extensive amount of knowledge, I would expect a higher degree of courtesy and not a blatant attack. And you might want to fix the name of one of the immortals on your page... It's Chung/Zhong/Zhang Li Chuan.... not Hsiang. (second one down)

Ah mate, I've used those real techniques in the military and never was something so stupid as throwing one leg blindly up behind you ever taught.
I have friends who train/teach and fight WMA and nowhere in any of their training is it taught to stand on one leg and throw the other blindly behind you.

In fact, to remove your core stability in such a manner as throwing your torso lower such a bad idea as it removes your stability and makes you more susceptible to being dropped/thrown/controlled, it also limits your ability to move efficiently or quickly as you have to drop your foot and reset your balance.

If you fought full contact with weapons, that would mean to the death or severe injury, you must have a fierce record to still be alive, how many did you kill and in what manner and did you ever hurt someone with a blind leg behind you move?


I can call anything stupid if I so wish, especially coming from my background where such moves are repeatedly proven as ineffective and far far far from efficient or realistic.

As for the Immortal spelling, that is the spelling under our dialect, I would think someone who has lived in China so long would know about different spellings/dialects due to region/village/person.....

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

"never was something so stupid as throwing one leg blindly up behind you ever taught."

You're right! It's not thrown blindly. I never said throw it blindly. Throwing your leg up blindly in the middle of a sword fight would be extremely stupid.

"to remove your core stability in such a manner as throwing your torso lower such a bad idea as it removes your stability and makes you more susceptible to being dropped/thrown/controlled, it also limits your ability to move efficiently or quickly as you have to drop your foot and reset your balance."

Your core stability "center" remains in tact because your torso and the leg rising acts as a fulcrum holding balance and maintaining your stability and center. As it does limit your ability to move... I did say it was used as an extreme measure. You definitely want it to be the last technique thrown should you use it, IMO.


"If you fought full contact with weapons, that would mean to the death or severe injury, you must have a fierce record to still be alive, how many did you kill and in what manner and did you ever hurt someone with a blind leg behind you move?"

Okay, smart ass. o back and read the part about my instructor being in the SCA. We fought wearing armor of sorts. And once again with the blind leg move. Really? Really?


"I can call anything stupid if I so wish, especially coming from my background where such moves are repeatedly proven as ineffective and far far far from efficient or realistic."

Well... with your background and all, you must have the impressive record. How many sword duels have you fought? You say you have proven such techniques ineffective. Please... enlighten me

As for the Immortal spelling, that is the spelling under our dialect, I would think someone who has lived in China so long would know about different spellings/dialects due to region/village/person.....

It's not the same pronunciation as Hsiang in Haw Hsiang Gu. There are 4 different systems of romanization with a splinter one off the Yale system. But, it's not the same Hsiang and can be confusing to those who read your website.

I'm not attacking you in the slightest. Not trying to make you see things my way. Just be open minded. You're the one saying it's completely ineffective. Why? because you said so. That's close minded. and again... I did not say throw the leg blindly.

cheers...

It would be nice to have a more civil discussion here.

I would suggest to think about the SPEED and POSITIONING such an altercation happened.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

That's a nice rendition of Qingping, not the version I know (will post a link for comparison if I can find a clip of the version I know, from Seven Star Praying Mantis of the Master Wang Qing Zai -> Master Huo Rui Ting and onwards line), but I can see the similarities. Good to see some applications looking usable and neat as well. Qingping 'clicked' more with me than any other jianplay I've been taught, possibly because the only comparable amount of weapons work I'd done up until that point had been fencing, and the bladework in qingping seemed a lot tighter and direct than in the other jian form I know (dragon springs jian), and thus similar to what I'd been concentrating on with the fencing.