Ching Ping Jian (Straight Sword) Form One and Applications
Hi,
Here's a video of a student from our school demonstrating the Ching Ping Jian, Form One and its applications. Alma Kalamperovic is 12 years old, and has been training with Sifu Wei-Chung Lin of the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association in Skokie, Illinois (Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association (CTMAA) v2.00) for almost three years.
Most of the applications are surprisingly good (if you see other stuff on youtube you know what I mean), but I would skip that stab to the back while balancing on one leg since that is a balance exercise.
You also don't use the finger stuff while fighting, since that is mostly a qigong thing, in some forms it may symbolize a second weapon that you may not have in training but in fight.
BTW, if doing fencing training with a mask, ALWAYS use a vest that closes the throat area OVER the mask rim. Otherwise, even a flimsy sword may slip in between the mask edge and clothing or vest, and penetrate the throat. That kills you even with a flimsy wushu sword. Even a throat protector may just bend the tip so it goes through the mouth, not fun either, and in freak accidents equally lethal.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Wow!!!,..Excellent job Alma!!! (12yrs. old or Otherwise!) I remember our first experiance with a 'visiting' Master at Si-Fu Gracenin's school was Master He Wei-Chi,..she is the Queen of the Jian in Shang-Hai. Her first seminar with us was on Ching-Ping (Green Duck-Weed)Sword,..it was GREAT!!! Compliments to your Si-Fu!!!
That was quite good, both form and applications. Nice to see someone doing a form where it's not just about looking good, but demonstrating that she knows what each move is and performs them with intent.
__________________ "Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san
"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...
I think she did a fantastic job as well, very well done.
Have to point out though that some of those applications were not that practical or left huge openings that a skilled opponent would have used to wipe the floor with you.
4:00 to 4:02 is a good one, turning your back on an incoming opponent and kicking a leg back looks nice, but that still leaves him open to take off your leg or stab you in the back. Sword>Leg.
There were also a few times when going for head strikes that the entire body was left open without a guard, if you go for a head strike, you cannot expect your enemy to just drop his sword and sit there till you cleave him, he's going to stab you in the big target zone that was just left for him.
Other than that, I thought the performance was very nice and the applications were done well as well, I just think more reality should be included with them
That's what I tried to point out. You just cannot "apply" a balance exercise, where you stretch out your leg infront of you or to your back. It's for the balance and torso strengthening, not to kick someone. You cannot kick someone in a weapon fight in reach of his weapon, unless you provided the time and position by moving his weapon away and out of its direction. But if you managed that, you can also just stab that person, which is why most sword styles have moves in it shortening the hold of the sword so you can stab in close range, for example while holding the sleeve (guttering moves, awful but important stuff, back then).
BTW, what do you think how great would be the interest in forged steel safety swords (chinese jian version) you can do real fencing with (using fencing safety equipment) ? We have something like that for european style medieval fencing, i.e. straight swords with a different balance and length (longer).
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Originally
Posted By: Nik
BTW, what do you think how great would be the interest in forged steel safety swords (chinese jian version) you can do real fencing with (using fencing safety equipment) ? We have something like that for european style medieval fencing, i.e. straight swords with a different balance and length (longer).
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I think there would be strong interest, I would be and I know of a few others around here that would like that
Not bad. Once she learns to drop her weight, she'll be pretty formidable, but you can't expect that at her age. I like her positioning & alignment on the applications, & the timing is pretty decent in a lot of them.
I have to disagree that those one-leg moves are strictly "balance" techniques. There's also a deflect-and-evade element to them. She doesn't have the timing perfect and it's a little slow, but you can see the step away during the block followed by a turn back. Unless I'm looking at a different technique than the one you mentioned.
Any time you do a technique with a weapon, you always leave open areas. There's just no way around it. It's just a question of who exploits it first. You can minimize it by positioning, alignment & timing, but there's always an opening. In an application demonstration like this they tend to look pretty gaping.
I usually use kendo shinai for jian sparring. They're not ideal, but they only cost $10 at the local discount sword warehouse.
My overall opinion with the form is that it was smooth. The cross- & through-body coordination fundamentals are there, although there is room to improve & solidify them. I like that it's not rushed, as is often done when teaching children. Her movements look very mature & composed for a twelve-year-old. What I would like to see developed next is more variation in the tempo to bring out the flavour of the form, but if she keeps practicing the applications, that will likely come out naturally. The arm movements are a little too controlled and could be more natural, but really, she is better than most of what you see in this regard.
The applications is the more impressive section of the video, in my opinion. She shows signs of thinking why the technique is done the way it is, which is a step beyond merely repeating choreography. What I mean by this is that she makes adjustments to her position & alignment when necessary to make the techniques more effective. This is a relatively mature skill for a 12-year-old. It's relatively easy to teach to older teenagers with athletic backgrounds & very difficult to teach to adults.
If she learns to drop her weight, there will be a lot more power to the techniques, but I don't think anyone develops this skill until at least a year or two past puberty, and it's difficult to achieve until you stop growing. It looks like her training has been age-appropriate and not geared to flashy impress-the-parents "Aww they look so cute" schlock.
Point is, I strictly DO NOT want to see anyone doing a flashy "combat choreography" where someone opens up with a spear thrust to the foot and the other person does this sprawl-while-stab movement, or some turning move and then a kick to the back to "use" this "technique". Simply because, a spear thrust to the foot doesn't exist (soldiers are somehow used to kill people by stabbing body and head, for some odd reason), and a kick from mid-distance in the middle of positioning is giving the other person another chance to whack you. You have a weapon in your hands, use it. You could in rare cases kick someone using a spear when you made it past it, but chances are, you don't really affect him enough to warrant skipping a chance to just gutter him. It would also fail against anyone with an armor. If you push someone back with such a kick, you end up in more distance than you need to stab, and he will be in a better position than before, unless falling. How often do people evade spinning back kicks in K-1, and how often do people get dropped ? The chance to avoid a pi thrust from a full turn if you have a spear in your hands is 0%. If you are concerned about not killing the other guy, you can whack his head with the flat of the blade. If he has a blade too, kicking him AWAY from you can end up with his blade tip inside your body. Chinese sword fighting isn't something from fantasy movies with 60 minutes of dang-dang action. It's over in four seconds, one or the other way around. Modern fencing ends with a touche every odd 2 seconds, and with real weapons, that's it. So they wouldn't practice fancy "kicks" that are nothing but a chance to get killed in 90% and could be a mild impact in 10%. I have a weapon, he has one, and who manages to get a 0.5 seconds window uses it, and that's all it takes.
On the other hand, each and all CMA empty hands form has such balancing exercise, holding a leg infront or backwards in various positions. Why so ? Because, it not only practices balance, it creates tension, and leads to promotion of jin. That's why it's in weapons forms too, you want jin equally strong in weapon fighting, because it speeds up your movements, and enhances mobility.
In some, rare cases, you might still want to kick in a sword fight. For example, when for some odd reason the other person manages to grab the sword at the blunt part and wants to close in, you can keep him from that by doing a low push kick to the groin/upper thigh part, to make space, and put off balance. The front holding of a foot also helps on that, but not only.
In the end, sword fencing is something of the long gone history. Today, it's a recreation. I'm just no fan of making up stuff, that never would have worked, back then.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
hmmm,...well, I agree with most of it,...(except),...just like the "rare times when you can kick with a weapon",...if the opponent's Foot/Ankle is OPEN, and the rest of his body is protected/armored,..then he is going to get a spear to the foot,ankle or shin! The actual Spear technique is called; 'Chang Di Jeow' or 'Spear hits Foot',...and let's face it',...ALL techniques have been "made-up" at one time or another through their developement,...lol'. In a "REAL" fight Anything goes, with-in that 4 to 5 sec. blast of action!
That spear thrust is a spear-vs-spear thing, because that zone is (more) open (than the other ones). Anyways, the distancing thing, the reach of the sword vs. that of a spear, would be so important that only in ridiculously small percent of the cases, you would have an advantage of sliding back and leaning forward to stab. You have the same reach not putting your leg back. Chances are, you can't effectively reach the body anways, or get a counter with a spear rise to deflect the stab or an immediate followup penetration, and are then in a very very bad position to prevent becoming a kebap. Real war systems don't use low percentage moves, so it's safer to assume that this is what it is most useful for, and that is a body tension and balancing component. When someone goes at you with authority, you don't have the time to "see" that it goes down, and come with a Matrix bullet time move of that kind. Your chance is to deflect the spear thrust with a downward thrust of your own, crossing the line.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
yes,...I still agree,(every weapon changes the distancing/technique challenge)....but as you stated, 'with-in the heat of a 4-sec.' battle', even the most sound,Traditional techniques(of Any weapon 'or' empty-hand), sometimes turns into; "hey' how did that happen!?",....just because two, or more people 'going at it' usually NEVER looks/works like one' thinks it might,...and Most people Never even try to go through a 'Realistic' application of their training, even with the availability of all of the 'sponge/padded' weapons out-there' now-a-days',...which again, is the fault/responsability of their Si-Fu, and keeps adding to the 'false' confidence of the student.
Guns were by no means rare in early 20th-century China, but "cold" weapons were still much more common. Late-Qing infantry firearms were still pretty primitive. As late as 1901, the Yihetuan, armed with mostly knives and shovels, were able to march on Beijing, defeat several major units of both the Green Standard Army and the elite Eight Banner troops, and besiege the capital for 55 days until it was rescued by foreign troops & gunships. The red spear & big sword societies, which were active from the 20's until the late 40's & early 50's, really did use swords and spears. There are official records of battles between these societies & bandits involving tens of thousands using primarily traditional records during this time. There are easily thousands of old men still alive in China who used swords and spears in combat.
Mao's troops began the long march essentially unarmed, and finished well armed. Most of their weapons came from Nationalist troops who defected & from Japanese & Nationalists they defeated with guerrilla tactics, but in the beginning, they were surprisingly effective at ambushing armed troops in forests using knives & machetes, & capturing their guns. The Japanese troops in China had much older equipment than those fighting the Americans, and the Nationalists started with old pre-soviet Russian guns & Qing dynasty antiques (they were later armed by the Americans, but a lot of these guns ended up in Communist hands without much fighting.) Basically, most guns were US Civil War era technology, which aren't the most effective in southern Chinese jungles, and bullets were scarce. When Soviet & American forces finally arrived in China, a decades-old struggle ended in weeks due to the difference in weapon technology.
So it was basically the late 40's & early 50's where the use of traditional weapons on a large scale stopped in China. I'd have to go through dozens of articles on my hard drive to find all the backup for this, but it's all accepted history.
A friend of mine does a lot of research into pre-communist Chinese militias. He's interviewed a lot of old men who were members of the Red Spear & Big Sword activities. Apparently the primary targets for spear are the head and feet. There are a lot of major arteries in the feet and ankles, and a weapon strike to them won't only cripple, but cause death from bleeding in a minute or two. For swords, the primary target is the hands, followed by the head. A strike to the hand/wrist can also cause quick death by bleeding. These are also the main targets in naginata & kendo. Body strikes are problematic because they are easier to defend against & your weapon tends to get stuck if you are successful.
Here's a thought experiment for you. Imagine taking a meat cleaver and chopping your hand or foot with it. If you think you will do anything other than drop to the ground in agony, then you can argue that hand and foot strikes are useless.
Back to the video, I think the applications are good. I have some criticisms, but they are pretty knit-picky. Some are a little long-shot or "Hail Mary", but as any football fan will tell you, sometimes the game is won on a Hail Mary. Long passes aren't high-percentage, but on 4th & long in the dying seconds, a short-yardage play won't win the game. You still practice the long bomb.
