Sitting down or Standing up?

“	Originally Posted By: john100 Are there any benefits to standing meditation (zhan zhuang style) over seated? If a person only practiced seated meditation would they be missing out on anything?	”

Yes. Standing will strengthen the tendons and fascia and connective tissue if you stand for long periods of time. It does this in a unique way.

actually, im gonna agree with happeh.

standing meditation which to me is just an easier version of stance training.

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great ideas hold their roots in a simple thought.

THE CURRENT RUNS DEEP.

poo poo E too too...

One thing I find disturbing is when people talk about Astanga Yoga postures or other types of Yogic meditation and Chi Gung or T'ai Chi almost in the same breath.
Now I can appreciate that there are apparent similarities, and also some of the 'New Age' philosophers out there like to mix and match stuff these days, for example followers of guru Raj Neesh aka Osho.

However I think it's very important to remember that the philosophy of Yoga and that of T'ai Chi/Chi Gung commonly known as Taoism are worlds apart.

The aims are different, the exercises are different, fundamentally, they are from different roots, different cultures, different countries, and they were never designed to be botched together in this way or even compared with each other.

Yoga is derived from a form of mortification based on Hindu ascetic religious practises, Qi gung is the exact reverse and is based on Taoist life giving and medical principles, the opposite of mortification. The Taoist philosophy of T'ai Chi and Chi gung does not advocate holding the breath or static postures on the whole because Taoism is based on movement and these practises stagnate the Chi. Also they cause Carbon dioxide to acidify the blood which induces ageing. In yoga the energy travels in straight lines and can build up in the head, whereas in Taoist practices the energy travels in circuits and there are safety valves built into the system. Zen is something different again and is a mixture of Buddhist intellectual meditations without the Yoga and combined with Taoism and adapted for the Japanese mentality, in China it is called Chan Buddhism.

We often find people talking about 'chakras' and 'nadis' and the jing-luo and energy centres in Taoist systems as if they are the same thing, whereas Taoist practises are of course based on the theories of Chinese Medicine, the energy meridians and points familiar to acupuncturists, there are distinct differences.

In my humble opinion if you start mixing these things together without a proper understanding of the differences just because they appear similar on the surface then at the very least nothing much will happen and you'l have wasted your time, but at the worst disaster can happen and psychosis and mental illlness can be the result.

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The buck stops here.

Seahorse Arts

“	Originally Posted By: chuangzu One thing I find disturbing is when people talk about Astanga Yoga postures or other types of Yogic meditation and Chi Gung or T'ai Chi almost in the same breath. Now I can appreciate that there are apparent similarities, and also some of the 'New Age' philosophers out there like to mix and match stuff these days, for example followers of guru Raj Neesh aka Osho. However I think it's very important to remember that the philosophy of Yoga and that of T'ai Chi/Chi Gung commonly known as Taoism are worlds apart. The aims are different, the exercises are different, fundamentally, they are from different roots, different cultures, different countries, and they were never designed to be botched together in this way or even compared with each other. Yoga is derived from a form of mortification based on Hindu ascetic religious practises, Qi gung is the exact reverse and is based on Taoist life giving and medical principles, the opposite of mortification. The Taoist philosophy of T'ai Chi and Chi gung does not advocate holding the breath or static postures on the whole because Taoism is based on movement and these practises stagnate the Chi. Also they cause Carbon dioxide to acidify the blood which induces ageing. In yoga the energy travels in straight lines and can build up in the head, whereas in Taoist practices the energy travels in circuits and there are safety valves built into the system. Zen is something different again and is a mixture of Buddhist intellectual meditations without the Yoga and combined with Taoism and adapted for the Japanese mentality, in China it is called Chan Buddhism. We often find people talking about 'chakras' and 'nadis' and the jing-luo and energy centres in Taoist systems as if they are the same thing, whereas Taoist practises are of course based on the theories of Chinese Medicine, the energy meridians and points familiar to acupuncturists, there are distinct differences. In my humble opinion if you start mixing these things together without a proper understanding of the differences just because they appear similar on the surface then at the very least nothing much will happen and you'l have wasted your time, but at the worst disaster can happen and psychosis and mental illlness can be the result.	”

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"Learning is for seeking the Way; what is the use of learning otherwise?" - Master Zhu

In our system we take a slightly different approach to meditation, the meditation of two natures.

The first are those common elements in all people so the approach takes those issues as part of what is addressed. The second is the nature of the self, each person has what is common in all people and yet each person has their own unique specific nature. The second nature applies that uniqueness of the individual.

These are applied to three positions/postures. Standing sitting laying. Each has a different effect and a different outcome.

Typically but not mandatory would be standing- physical effect (good for martial training and conditioning) sitting- more exploratory good for self awareness and contemplation and a light to moderate level of detachment. Laying- relaxation, healing, balancing etc also better for deeper levels of detachment.

This is very brief but the point is two things one the nature and second the intent are governing factors.

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“	Yoga is derived from a form of mortification based on Hindu ascetic religious practises	”

We went over this before. Turned out you knew jack about yoga. Obviously not learned anything since. Like I said last time. This is as intelligent as summing up tai chi as drinking mercury and thinking it'll make you live forever.

“	fundamentally, they are from different roots	”

LOL the tai chi guys always come out with that one whenever the shaolin/india thing comes up. Yeah, right, tai chi developed in a vacuum in china while shaolin developed from Indian meditation practices; there was never any bleed over... I don't believe either legend holds all the truth.

“	or static postures on the whole	”

Oh well, all those tai chi masters who're keen on static standing practice (and seated meditation) must be wrong because you say such things aren't taoist. What's it like living in such a small bubble?

“	Also they cause Carbon dioxide to acidify the blood which induces ageing	”

LOL Yeah right, wich is why so many senior yogis look so old... Not because they're 90 and can still hold scorpion for 5 minutes and only look 60.

“	the energy meridians and points familiar to acupuncturists, there are distinct differences	”

You're qualified to judge??? You don't know anything about 'yogic' views on energy flow. Both systems are vast and cover a vast range of different opinions. I've yet to read or meet any one who knows enough about both systems to make an informed judgement on the similarities and differences in the theory. My tai teacher teacher is as close as I've got and he can point out both profound differences and remarkable similarities. I've been taught both tai chi and yogic sitting meditation, which makes me more qualified to comment on the differences between the most outwardly similar postures than you.

“	if you start mixing these things together without a proper understanding of the differences just because they appear similar on the surface then at the very least nothing much will happen and you'l have wasted your time, but at the worst disaster can happen and psychosis and mental illlness can be the result	”

To me this is like the sticker on my kayak stating 'kayaking is an assumed risk sport'. Gee, I always thought paddling oversize tupperware over waterfalls was like, totally safe. Why not tell us the earth is round while you're at it? The problem is not learning different systems, it's practicing any one of them incorrectly.

How much do you know about the fusion systems out there? It's not for me - I believe in learning each system I study as deeply as possible and practicing it on it's own - like learning French and German but not inventing a new language Germench. But I've recently met a yoga fusion guy who has good reasons for mixing what he does, does it well, and helps his students. He's better qualified than either of us so why pick on him?

My own minimum daily practice is 10 min tai chi standing, 15 min 'shaolin' chi kung, 15 min yoga and old fashioned prayer and meditation, each done as correctly as I know how according to the way I was taught it. The results of 'mixing' like this was some initial uncomfortable and intense emotional release stuff, followed by miraculous health improvements, and gradual deep but subtle mental and emotional changes. No psychosis. I saw a good person who wasn't getting the same benefits from a practice that seemed to contain similar elements but no standing and thought I'd ask if people considered standing important. If enough did I'd go ahead and recommend the person learn some... Your post doesn't help me in any way, I'm afraid.

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High mountains are a feeling
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“	the point is two things one the nature and second the intent are governing factors	”

Thanks aquira - that's something I'd been groping towards.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

john100 I'm surprised at your sarcastic tone, obviously I've touched a raw nerve here.

I don't agree with your viewpoint and you can't accept it, acceptance is one of the basic principles of Taoist philosophy, maybe in your rush to mix and match everything you missed this out. This is one of the big problems with the mix and match approach, people try something, then they shy the first hurdle when they are asked to try something difficult, for example they may have to face up to some of their faults. So instead of facing up to the problem they run off and try some other teacher or system, then they do the same again and again, always keeping the sweet bits and spitting out the nasty medicine.

These systems were designed over thousands of years to be coherent, and many masters worked on them under the guidance of their seniors. For some modern New Age guru to come along and throw out the core teachings and bolt on some extras from various sources is really nothing more than a supreme act of arrogance. These self-proclaimed gurus quite probably lack the discipline necessary to progress in a traditional art so they take a short cut to the top and make up their own style. In my opinion people who study these bastardized Arts are their own worst enemy and have concocted their own punishments so I'm quite happy to leave them to it unless they come to me for help.

Yes there are similarities between things as Aqira points out, there are also profound differences that make individual things unique, maybe even incompatible. If you have any education in these matters John100 then rather than attacking me perhaps you would like to enlighten us with your perception as to the similarities and differences between these different approaches. Shaolin is based on Buddhism by the way, this is a different philosophy to Yoga which is based on Hindu asceticism, which is also different to Taoism. These differences are quite clear when you look at the different styles that these philosophies have produced but what is more interesting is if we look at the underlying principles which each system is based on.

You talk about reading books and the opinions of the people you have met, well I have expressed my opinion and you disagree with it, so let's hear the evidence behind your assertions. What in your opinion are the essential similarities between Yoga and the Taoist practises and also what are the crucial differences? Are there any problems associated with people blending approaches that were never designed to be studied in unison with a different philosophy, if so what are they?

My girlfriend drives a Peugeot, I have a Ford, can you imagine what would happen if we tried to swap the carburetters from the one into the other? I'm sure it would look ok, and in theory the two parts perform the same function don't they, but would either car work after the operation?

__________________
The buck stops here.

Seahorse Arts

“	Originally Posted By: john100 Are there any benefits to standing meditation (zhan zhuang style) over seated? If a person only practiced seated meditation would they be missing out on anything?	”

The Buddhists teach that there are four postures for mind awareness: sitting, standing, lying down and walking.

Each of the Saints and Patriarchs have all realized enlightenment during all of these postures. So, for Enlightenment, one is as good as another.

But spending our lives sitting in chairs rather than on the floor has made modern people a bit decrepit for full lotus sitting.

All of the internal ancient masters have recommended the usefullness of standing practice. This allows for a full alignment of the entire skeletal structure and for the attainment of "lightness" and "effortlessness" in kung-fu. But for the deepest meditative serrenity, sitting is the best. After all, most of the Buddha statues you see are all sitting down with a smile on their faces, aren't they?

“	I'm surprised at your sarcastic tone	”

Clearly you don't know me

“	I don't agree with your viewpoint and you can't accept it	”

You disagree, I argue my viewpoint strongly, therefor I can't accept the fact you disagree? Huh? When did arguing the alternative position turn into being unable to accept disagreement?

“	always keeping the sweet bits and spitting out the nasty medicine.	”

Maybe people do this. If I was doing it I wouldn't focus my practice around those exercises my teachers have told me are central... If this was me my practice would be head stand, hand stand, lotus, scorpion, and sword form all jumbled up, not the boring stuff my teachers convinced me to 'test for six months' and I found worked. I wouldn't be doing disciplined practice in each system according to its principles. Like others on this board you argue with your own imaginary oponent not the person you adress your remarks to.

“	These self-proclaimed gurus quite probably lack the discipline necessary to progress in a traditional art so they take a short cut to the top and make up their own style	”

Which ones? I stated quite clearly I choose to practice more than one discipline but not to create my own system. This doesn't apply to the yoga fusion teacher I mentioned. Go ahead, demolish these straw men you describe. Rant at them, I've never met them. Who is it with the acceptance issues again?

“	These systems were designed over thousands of years to be coherent, and many masters worked on them under the guidance of their seniors	”

Which is why I train in them as best as I am able under the guidance of the best teachers I can find. These teachers have no problem with me also training under others in other systems. Why does it upset you?

“	My girlfriend drives a Peugeot, I have a Ford, can you imagine what would happen if we tried to swap the carburetters from the one into the other?	”

Are you telling me that only a peugeot mechanic could fit the peugeot parts, that a ford mechanic couldn't fit a peugeot carberettor to a peugeot car? That you can't drive your gf's peugeot because Ford spent years designing their engine? That a tai chi master can't play badminton?

What about the health systems? Do you tell your students not to go to a Western Doctor if they want to train with you?

“	Shaolin is based on Buddhism by the way, this is a different philosophy to Yoga which is based on Hindu asceticism, which is also different to Taoism	”

My central disagreement is with "which is based on Hindu asceticism"

1)If only life were that simple. We debated this elsewhere. You offered no evidence to refute my contention yoga had other many sources. Nor did you refute my argument that contemporary nationalist Hinduism is a relatively new faith fused out of many very different elements. We disagree about the 'based' argument. To take this further explain to me why I was wrong in the other sources I suggested.

2)Your descriptions of asceticism 'mortify the flesh', 'flagellate', draw heavily on western (Catholic) religious practice, and not on Hindu descriptions of asceticism. This makes me suspect you see asceticism solely in terms of seperation between physical and spiritual and punishing the physical to emphasise the spiritual. If you had done any yoga, or even read about it, you would know that one of the central tenants is non violence - this includes violence to the self. You would have a broader understanding of asceticism and see that the kind you describe is the total opposite of yoga.

“	let's hear the evidence behind your assertions	”

Why argue with me when you can experience the evidence for yourself? I suggested you head down to High Wycombe and work with the senior Iyengar teacher there. Why would you waste your time listening to me when you can learn from some one so much better qualified?

“	What in your opinion are the essential similarities between Yoga and the Taoist practises and also what are the crucial differences? Are there any problems associated with people blending approaches that were never designed to be studied in unison with a different philosophy, if so what are they?	”

How long have you got? You paid no attention to my comments previously why should I make the effort to repeat them? Besides, I don't think we'd even get started with an agreement on what's covered by 'taoist practices' I can accept tai chi master Wei Ki Jin (sp?) who writes of tai chi and knee damage 'damaged knees are a small price to pay for enlightenment'. I doubt you can.

As for my qualifications... regular practice with senior teachers. Do you want names and styles? I can give them but they won't mean anything to you because you know nothing about yoga and don't know the tai chi people... Do you want my training history? I can provide it but it'll just prove I'm a sad git with no life except practice.

I suggest you read the introduction to 15 minute yoga by Godferry Devreaux and Yoga: a path to holistic health by BKS Iyengar for starters. After that - start a seperate thread and as and when I have time and motivation I'll be sarcastic at you.

For now I'm just going to take your comments as a 'don't suggest standing' vote and give them the weight your willingness to comment on systems you know nothing about suggests.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me