Upside down

I would imagine it would also wreak havon on your cirulatory and digestive systems. which utilize gravity as well as the muscualr movement involved in walked etc to assist the processes. Your Heart is not meant to pump up hill for extended periods of time.

__________________
One hit, see blood.

It's not enough to just not get hit

Coulter documents the benefits of compression in head stand so it isn't that esoteric.

Did some stuff today where a guy with real neck problems (particularly a pulled nerve) benefited massively from compression of the spine. The instructor was saying she sees endless injuries from excessive traction - people hanging from the ceiling convinced it's the only "true" traction and ****ing up their spines. Her explanation was that extension - particularly passive (as in the kind of traction you get if you don't know what you're doing and just hang) fires off a warning to the body to contract to prevent a potential over extension. Very gentle compression correctly applied on the other hand tells the body it is safe to extend. She called it "using the head as a limb". Certainly interesting and it definitely worked on the forty odd people in class.

This is very similar to the way a tai chi teacher will gently press down on a student's head when they are practicing tree standing. Interestingly it develops "springy strength" in the body in the same way tree standing does.

I've also done some digging on chi kung and inversions. Very similar to yoga, even the breathing patterns, but combined in slightly different patterns and mixed with very different exercises.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Still looking for more info on chi kung inversions	”

I don't think you will find much. Chi Kung is mainly based on the relationship of Earth below the feet/spine, and the Heavens above the head, and man standing between them. It is possible to practice Chi Kung in less than ideal situations, otherwise it would be useless. The blood flowing to the head while upside down may cause the practitioner to focus on their brain while performing Chi Kung, which is not great ( never focus on or sending qi to the brain/heart as a general safety precaution ).

There are quite a few Chi Kung exercises that involve hanging just your upper body from your hips ( like you are leaning over to touch your toes, but just hanging loose and relaxed ), then you normally roll the spine as you straighten up. I'm sure you know at least a couple like that. Never heard of or seen anything completely upside down. Maybe if one of the Shaolin animals was a Bat, it could have happened .

If you ask me from my personal experience ( 7 years Qigong ). The flow of Qi can be "forced" in a sense, to flow how you wish, but this kind of flow is rarely as powerful as Spontaneous Chi Flow. For me, when a natural Qi flow starts, the initial feeling is that the Qi/energy is flowing down through my head/neck/spine into my lower abdomen, then up through my stomach/chest and out through my mouth/nose.

Upside down, well, in a sense, your head then becomes your ass, right ?

Personally, I think it's about gravity. There are some great benefits from doing stuff upside down, but that is obviously not our natural way. Human's are designed to sit, stand, lie down because these are things we do all the time, but we are designed to stand on our heads only if required.

It just seems to make more sense to practice Chi Kung ( supposedly, just enhancing our own natural energy flows and patterns ) in the most natural body positions we can ( standing, sitting, kneeling, lying down.

What about that really old Shaolin Monk guy, who does the one finger zen handstand ? Surely that would count as Chi Kung, though I find the video to be a little suspect myself, since we never see him getting into, or out of the posture.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

“	we never see him getting into, or out of the posture.	”

You need to see the full thing on an old video about Jet Li's training which shows him getting into posture.

“	that is obviously not our natural way	”

As one of my yoga teachers said "who told you it was natural to walk around on your feet?"

The upside down stuff I've seen was tibetan and fairly esoteric but fitted in fine with other chi kung traditions and quite clearly worked.

“	The flow of Qi can be "forced" in a sense, to flow how you wish, but this kind of flow is rarely as powerful as Spontaneous Chi Flow	”

This is where it gets tricky. There is no one "correct" route for energy. If you practice without the visualisations you need a super human ability to correct your alignment. I've trained many alignment experts who insisted on a "scientific" approach but none could provide sufficiently detailed instruction to avoid the telltale phrases like "sink here", "breathe into this part of your body" "extend out of that" that effectively mean "visualise energy moving like this".

At the same time we are completely agreed that if you practice the visualisations strongly but neglect the alignment you risk deceiving yourself because it is easy for the mind to convince itself something is happening that is not.

Personally I currently find the "cosmic circulation" model with energy coming in through the ball of the foot and hand and spiralling up the limb to run through the perenium/armpit and up the spine then descending the front of the body and spiralling out the heel of the foot and hand works best. It leads to correct alignment and optimal movement in all yoga postures I've tried, including inversions, and chi kung, and tai chi forms. It also feels natural for me and matches the feeling I get when I practice intensely without visualisation.

I've tried several other visualisation models and they all match their particular practice but fall short when moved into another. Of course, that is at least partly due to deficiencies in my practice of the system they come from.

“	Chi Kung is mainly based on the relationship of Earth below the feet/spine, and the Heavens above the head, and man standing between them	”

This is interesting. Taoist chi Kung predates any likely yoga influence and doesn't show any. The cosmology theories attached to chi kung are suspisciously similar to those found in vedic astrology and in yoga though. Enough to make me wonder if they came along later or were influenced later. Yoga has very similar theories (as within so without) the cosmology relating to the chackras relating to the koshas but they view inversions as essential to get the sun and the moon to unite at the top of the "pole" rather than being at oposite ends...

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	You need to see the full thing on an old video about Jet Li's training which shows him getting into posture.	”

Cool. That's one strong finger.

“	As one of my yoga teachers said "who told you it was natural to walk around on your feet?"	”

evolution

“	The upside down stuff I've seen was tibetan and fairly esoteric but fitted in fine with other chi kung traditions and quite clearly worked.	”

I'm not trying to say that Chi Kung doesn't work upside down. For example, if I read a book. I can hang off my feet upside down to read it, and it will work, but I am more comfortable reading while sitting down the right way up. I think it makes sense because of gravity and the way our organs/limbs/bones are positioned.

Monkeys, who have far more sensitivity and control with their feet, tend to use their feet as their main mode of transportation. Dogs don't have four hands, they have four feet/paws.

Our bodies are pretty amazing tools, in that they can do a lot of stuff they weren't specifically designed for.

Also, I am personally not prescribed to any one method of Chi movement or visualisation. I just want to clear up a thing or two. The style of Chi Kung that I learnt the most indepth, does employ visualisation in the sense you mean. But, what I meant in my post, is not visualisation. You simply think of an organ or body part/path and the Chi will flow there. It is nothing more complex than that, and anyone in a Chi Kung state of mind can do this. The problem with sending Chi to a specific part of your body, is that you might be missing the big picture. I am not a TCM expert in any sense, this is just an example: You have lower back pain, so you send Chi to your lower back every day to make it better. Instead, the pain gets worse, because you treated the symptom and not the root cause. The idea of spontaneous Chi Flow, is that you allow the better judgement of your subconcious ( and in Taoist Qigong, nature ) to take over and decide where the fixing is needed.

My description of Chi flow above, was to describe, how the feeling enters my body, when performing something general, like Dynamic Chi Kung ( which is normally the first step to get Chi Flowing strong so that you can go into a Chi Flow ). Static meditation Chi Kung, well then you define your own reality there, right ?

This is what I meant, that focusing your Chi on a certain place ( bringing it to material level ) is less powerful, than allowing spontaneous flow ( taking it to a spiritual level ). There are some very powerful exercises that focus the flow of Chi, normally to a chain of meridians and or chakras. Abdominal Breathing and Reverse Abdominal Breathing and Bamboo Shoot Breathing for example. Doesn't Kundalini ( spelling? ) Yoga practice to generate energy from the base of the spine straight up through the head ? Anyway, these kinds of exercises can be very powerful in generating energy. I am not saying different.

“	It also feels natural for me and matches the feeling I get when I practice intensely without visualisation.	”

Then I would say stick with that.

“	Taoist chi Kung predates any likely yoga influence and doesn't show any. The cosmology theories attached to chi kung are suspisciously similar to those found in vedic astrology and in yoga though.	”

I have the benefit of practicing both Bhuddist and Taoist forms of Qigong under instruction from different schools/styles. One was my Shaolin teacher, the other my Taiji Sifu. Our Taiji Sigung would always give a lecture about the stuff you talk about in your last paragraph, at the end of one of his combat seminars. The model of the earth, man, heaven was Taoist. Though, this doesn't mean it's the only theory from the Tao camp.

My Qigong style teaches to always draw energy from the cosmos ( in the nose unless a specific breathing technique is to be used ), and let it out down through the feet ( storing a little in the Dantien ) and out the mouth.

I believe that we all create our own perception of reality. If we create the world around us through the limitations of our senses, then changing perception, changes reality. Therefore, I believe, that there can never be one right or wrong way, as I'm sure you agree.

So I guess, I think that practising Chi Kung isn't going to do much harm ( though what do I know ? ), but it's not something you will find in most of the "instruction manuals" out there. I wouldn't call standing on your head to do Chi Kung natural, though I don't think there is anything wrong with it either.

Whew, I gotta go eat now. Food is Chi

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

btw, I know you are probably aware of several things I posted. I thought, to include it anyway, for other people's benefit, not to talk down to you in any way.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

No worries.

I kind of see taoist practices as splitting into the proven ancient - diagrams of chi kung postures and bone accupu****ure needles in very old burial caves - and the "tacked on" - all the alchemy and astrology which seems very similar to bon and other old traditions in the area and seems to at least share roots with, if not have been heavily influenced by, vedic traditions. I would consider taoist chi kung to fit in the first category.

A couple of things come out of your post.

It is very difficult to define "natural"; the very concept is "unnatural" monkeys do not assess their movements based on how "natural" they are. Female chimpanzees will kill other females' children.

It is almost impossible to determine cause and effect with sensation and alignment. If I put my body in a certain position then I will naturally feel a certain sensation. It will be almost impossible for me to put my body in that position unless i have an indication of the sensation because to do so would be like trying to catch a ball by moving each individual muscle "correctly" deliberately rather than using hand - eye coordination. Once I have the sensation I may describe it differently to some one else. What I describe as cold another may describe as heat but we each mean the sensation you get when you first put your hand in hot water just before you feel the heat...

My teacher is something of an expert on chi kung (he lectures on it for a uni course) and I've trained taoist and shaolin based sets with him and with other teachers. I've also trained kundalini and several other yoga traditions, some of which get heavily into this stuff.

“	evolution	”

This is where it gets tricky. I have seen a guy carry a 40Kg coffee husker on his head all day through the rainforrest (in the mountains). Did he "evolve" to do that? Some one today pointed to a model of the spine and suggested headstand was contraindicated by the fact the neck vertebrae are much smaller (and weaker) than the lumbar... by the same logic we would walk everywhere by shuffling on our backside because our hip bones are much larger than any of the 23 bones in our feet.

Each to their own but this stuff always raises more questions than it answers. IMO the lack of inversions is the big weakness in TCMA as a complete training system. It has almost everything else but it seems only quite esoteric branches get the feet above the head.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Ok, i'm game. I have done just a little bit of stuff over the years, and since i have recently overcome some old injuries i'll play guinea-pig .
Got any vids John?
Or how about a basic addition to my workouts that you could recommend.

As for the heart and blood, the blood that flows to your toes has to come back up to the heart too. So many problems show up in the feet just because of the pooling effect gravity has on the fluids and the inherently poor circulation of the furthest extremities. I imagine regular inversions would greatly benefit the circulatory and lymphatic systems.

__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel

I'd like to put a plug in here for Matt Furey's training. He advocates a lot of back bridge and wall walk training (I think this may have been in "Combat Abs"....a video that shatters the unintentional comedy scale as we know it). I'm sure I can locate some youtubes. There's a lot of almost inverted exercizes that will strengthen you neck and get you used to going upside down.

__________________
1. Research your own experience
2. Absorb what is useful
3. Reject what is useless
4. Add what is essentially your own

training bridging is good.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson

Wow, not a single Furey bash?

__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel

Furry?

Did I hear that poser nancy's name again?





Sorry, was late to the party

Ahhhh, i can relax now.

__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel

“	unintentional comedy	”

You definitely need to link to some of that!

Most of my teachers are very careful about back bends, and neck bridges to strengthen the neck would come after a lot of other work if they ever included it at all. It's one of those areas where the specific requirements of martial arts goes up against a lot of general training advice. Backbends generally are very easy to get wrong and require considerable work to get right. Shoulder stand is probably the nearest most would get to neck bridges although there is something very like a neck bridge in the ashtanga closing sequence and it is often not taught very thoroughly. Back bridges are great but the trick is to bend evenly through the whole body rather than pushing into mobile areas (which risks painful injuries as a result of the shearing stress where the mobile sections contact more ridgid ones). Also people tend to use them to open the thoracic (good) but do so by just pushing it forward (bad for the little spike thingies on the spine).

“	a basic addition to my workouts that you could recommend	”

Now I'm nervous!

From what I remember of your spine history you would want to take inversions fairly steady. I do know a few people who have recovered from massive back injuries (like broken neck) through inversion work including headstand but it took very specific work with very skilled teachers.

I've found a few things that sort of interconnect.

Restorative yoga as a way to strengthen the neck, improve spine health, and learn to use the head correctly involves a lot of partner work and work with pressing the head into bolsters and blocks with the weight mostly on the feet. A typical exercise would be down dog with the head pressing into a bolster or standing forward bend over one leg with the head pressing in to a bolster on the wall. The idea is to teach the muscles in the neck and upper back to work extensively rather than by contraction (I know that doesn't match the science but it is exactly the feeling achieved). That stuff I couldn't find on youtube.

Mainstream yoga has traditionally placed a lot of emphasis on the benefits of headstand and shoulder stand. Headstand is the "king of poses" as dharma mitra says in this clip Dharma Mittra - The True Purpose of Asanas shoulder stand is the "queen of poses". Most recomend practicing headstand for three minutes every day as a cure for pretty much everything (provided it is practiced correctly and daily for some time) and the list of ailments Iyengar credits shoulder stand with improving is impressive. As a general starting point ... Headstand Physiological benefits - yoga There are lots of videos of this stuff on youtube this isn't a terrible one MySpaceTV Videos: yoga sirsasana by Christophe Millet although I think he looks like he could go further onto his head so his neck was straighter and the appearance is he could put more weight onto his arms (the pressure on the neck should be minimal). This isn't terrible on shoulder stand http://www.expertvillage.com/player....shoulder-stand although traditionally it probably wasn't practiced anything like this vertical - it's fine to prop the hips on the hands, not get nearly so vertical, and reduce the pressure on the neck even more.

There are chi kung sets that involve headstand and handstand. I only know of one and it is deeply esoteric and involves far too many sacrifices (and too much pain) for me. The headstand part of the practice is done without any support from the arms and involves slightly exagerated abdominal breathing (quite similar to very slow bhastrika). The same breathing is done in the handstand section of the practice. The benefits of the full routine are interesting and the whole thing could be done without some of the esotericism and get the same result I am certain. The difficulty would be working out which bits could go...

I don't see much point to practicing the chi kung stuff without the full set. The restorative yoga stuff is always brilliant - even just sitting on a chair and then bending forward from the hips and having a partner press gently on the top of the skull so the spine extends into their hands can do interesting things to the neck muscles. The link between chi kung and yoga inversion practice is what got me interested and started the thread though...

The mainstream yoga stuff is great and, with a bit of a warm up, most healthy and athletic martial artists should be able to practice headstand and shoulder stand safely without too much trouble but if you decide to do so off the back of this thread then you do it at your own risk

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Thanks for the great response.
I hear your concerns, but i get stronger every year and have made leaps and bounds in the past year in particular (famous last words...) so would like to start something to directly strengthen and connect my structure. I can do neck bridges now with no pain during or after, so i hope i am not premature in wanting to try some other stuff.
I'll take it easy, i promise.

I'll ask the brothers fiance...

about a local teacher.

Sorry plug time.
That's her and those are clothes she designed and sells (note the upside down script!) online @ Lily Lotus | Home
and at her local boutique as well as several locations internationally.

__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel