qi and muscle blocked qi?

dang_lu_chan · #1 (**permalink**) February 12th, 2007, 05:54 AM

i know that doing qi gong requires you to relax but does training your muscle really block your qi? Because all you tai chi practioners out will agree with me our (Qi bellies) doesnt exactly make you poular athe beach

Allan_Tsang · #2 (**permalink**) February 12th, 2007, 10:46 AM

do you think a taiji forms does not require a LOT of muscular work?

**TaichiMantis** · #3 (**permalink**) February 12th, 2007, 11:19 AM

I too see somewhat of a conflict in that I am trying to pull in my abs to support my back but I must relax and let go the belly to do deep diaphram breathing...am I not seeing something right here?

**Nik** · #4 (**permalink**) February 14th, 2007, 07:07 AM

It depends on the muscle structure, not the amount. Bad training makes it "close", good training makes it "open", while still ADDING muscle.

john100 · #5 (**permalink**) February 14th, 2007, 11:01 AM

Agree with nik.

I apreciate it isn't the most scientific view but it makes a lot of sense in terms of experience

"working the muscle does not mean contracting the muscle"

“	I am trying to pull in my abs to support my back but I must relax and let go the belly to do deep diaphram breathing	”

A tricky one. A common problem with ashtangis - they can end up tensing all the wrong abdominal muscles. For what it's worth I "understood" this stuff all over again relatively recently. It pays to look very closely at exactly which muscles you use to support your spine. What are you doing with the pelvic floor? What are you doing to the muscles around the point at the back ("min meng"?) Where are you breathing with the dan tien? Different schools different techniques. I've finally found a place I can sit, support the spine, and breath fully into the abdomen. Feels great. It isn't total relaxation of the very lowest abdominal muscles and the perenium is very slightly lifted but it is as "right" as my body awareness allows right now - you can tell by the way it feels

bsd_tector · #6 (**permalink**) February 14th, 2007, 02:57 PM

Exactly.
You have to give up years of tightening the abs for that flat look.
When I could finally experience what my core was suppose to feel like, I could make sense of the breathing and posturing which allows your dan tien to work for you.

Back to Dang lu chan's question. I believe that training does not block your chi as much as releases it. You need to recharge by doing Qigong everyday.
You are relaxed but not a wet noodle. There are movements that require specific postures. Tightening abs I don't believe is one of them.

*Sifu Eight fist, I'm sure you can articulate what I'm trying to say.*

P.S. I finally stopped caring about what strangers think of my midsection.
If they point and laugh, I'll kick their butts!!!

dang_lu_chan · #7 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2007, 05:05 AM

“	Originally Posted By: Allan_Tsang do you think a taiji forms does not require a LOT of muscular work?	”

thats not wat im trying to say.what i should have said what are your opinions on doing tai chi and muscle building and flattening your "qi belly"

**true** · #8 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2007, 05:26 AM

Chi belly? Most of tai chi, ba gua and hsing yi masters are slim. At least the masters I've seen in China, Taiwan, Australia, the US and the UK are. Breathing into the dan tien actually improves muscle tone. Serious daily practice is very slimming. Some masters were/are not, but I don't think their bellies come from chi! There tend to be more heavy American martial artists but that's part of the American lifestyle, not the chi!!

Training muscle doesn't block chi. Tai chi trains muscle. Chi kung trains muscle. Ba gua, hsing-yi trains muscle. Lifting weights without stretching may cost you some speed and flexibility and relatedly chi circulation, but not if done in moderation as part of a well-rounded work out regimen.

Listen to your body and practice daily.

dang_lu_chan · #9 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2007, 05:43 AM

not when reverse breathing is trained to be natrual then
btw the purpose of tai chi and qi gong is to relax because tension blocks qi in the beginning doing will train your muscles but you spose to practice untill you have achieved "sung"

**Nik** · #10 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2007, 06:56 AM

Yeah, the "Taiji masters" who are 23 are slim, or thin. The old timers of some grown man age were often big bulls.

john100 · #11 (**permalink**) February 15th, 2007, 08:58 AM

Some old timers are slim - often with serious muscle development (of useful rather than aesthetic muscles) - look a lot like serious yogis. Depends on strand of tai chi, genetics, diet, all sorts of stuff. Even then, though, if they take their shirt off and demonstrate dan tien breathing there will be a bulge like a soup plate.

You can "work" your muscles and achieve "sung" - it feels great - but it's very hard to explain. If you could lift weights in this way it would improve your tai chi. I have enough trouble doing tai chi/yoga and maintaining this, though.

I've done a lot of ashtanga - with full vinyasa to standing between every posture - and even when I had just started teachers were complimenting me on my "bandha control" - read core strength if you're not into the subtleties. I'm naturally lean and I still do a lot of core work - stuff like lifting up into one leg crow from splits over one arm. I eat lightly and healthily and I burn a lot of calories. If any one should have a flat abdomen it would be me. Instead I have the stereotype fitness freak abs - around a soft patch over the dan tien. IMO there's no way round it. Do tai chi have less than the stereotype perfect abs.

cloudwater · #12 (**permalink**) February 20th, 2007, 02:14 AM

Just echoing some of what was said here ...

I've heard from a number of different Tai Chi and Qigong instructors that "chi belly" results from storing energy in the lower dantien - the stomach needs to expand to accommodate it. I even heard an "master" once say you can't have a flat stomach if you practice Tai Chi.

These statements don't support my experience. My stomach is somewhat thinner today than before I started Tai Chi over 20 years ago.

In addition, if you think about it, it doesn't make sense that a body part would grow just because you are storing energy there. For example, if I focus on the energy center in my feet, I wouldn't expect my feet to grow fatter because of it!

Wait a second ... I used to wear size 12 shoes 20 years ago, and I recently had to buy size 14 shoes. Maybe there's something to this?