No worries. Just wanted to put that out there. I think the 007 thing is kinda funny actually, as the video is something master Chan kinda frowns upon.
18 Lohan is the first of 5 main chi kung forms in the Chan system. Followed by Siu and Dai Lohan, they develop jing, chi and shen respectively.
The last two, Taiji and Wuji explore yin/yang principles with fighting intent.
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"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel
When it comes to Chi Kung, as with Kung Fu, the forms themselves are far from being the most important part.
You could take the same Chi Kung exercise and practice it a thousand different ways with different results.
Yes, specific movements can give different effects but Mental/Physical/Emotional relaxation overrides all other considerations. The deeper into relaxation you can go ( and it is like removing layers from an onion. You think you are truly relaxed then you go even deeper ) the better the results will be.
I used to do all sorts of stuff like 8 Pieces Brocade, etc. for a long time, but I have found that just a couple minutes of simple relaxation and breathing gets me better results. Quality over Quantity I say.
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yingyangsnake: What about exercises for building up and storing chi
And getting rid of excess or bad chi..
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Pretty much any exercise would do. You just give a gentle thought towards whatever you are trying to do. Like if you want to build Qi then you imagine ( very gently ) that you are building Qi.
Don't worry about whether it is happening or not because your mind creates your reality, so if you have doubt then it will not work. If you feel Qi flow, is it just in your mind ? Well, since we create our own reality, then that is no longer a valid question.
Originally
Posted By: Doughboy
When it comes to Chi Kung, as with Kung Fu, the forms themselves are far from being the most important part.
You could take the same Chi Kung exercise and practice it a thousand different ways with different results.
Yes, specific movements can give different effects but Mental/Physical/Emotional relaxation overrides all other considerations. The deeper into relaxation you can go ( and it is like removing layers from an onion. You think you are truly relaxed then you go even deeper ) the better the results will be.
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This is all true, but it is a slight oversimplification. For example in Hung Gar, relaxation is far from the point in say, Gung Gee Fook Fu, where the beginning (and some would argue the whole set) of the set is "hard chi kung" to strengthen the body, whereas in the chi kung i learn at acupuncture school, specific forms are used to treat specific ailments by actively stretching and coiling the meridians in question. In 18 Lohan the focus is on developing structure as well as using movement to generate chi and jing and is considered a yang form, while Dai Lohan is done seated and works the Ren and Du meridians. So i would add that while with enough intent you can certainly do all of those things with a single posture, the specificity makes the process a little more efficient. Work smarter, not harder.
__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel
I have not practiced Hung Gar Kung Fu or Dai Lohan as far as I know, but I have quite a bit of experience with 18 Lohan. As far as I know Hung Gar is a relatively external style of Kung Fu compared to styles like Lohan Kung Fu. You can correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't think it is oversimplification. IMO there isn't anything in the physical movements of Chi Kung that you can't get even better from regular physical exercise. Most dynamic Chi Kung I have done is essentially some sort of tendon stretching. I get better tendon stretching and strengthening from doing Isometric exercises.
I think it really does just come down to your state of relaxation.
Maybe my approach isn't for a lot of people who find they need more structure, and lots of secret stuff to learn that has to be passed down from a teacher ( who probably charges a lot of money for that honour ). But I bet there are a ton of people who are frustrated with Chi Kung practiced the long way not giving the results it was said to give them. Sometimes the old way does not suite everyone. Especially in this day and age. I have seen MANY people who actually don't get the results but they sort of trick themselves into thinking they are. I have seen people following traditional systems end up in the looney bin. Not saying the traditional system was to blame, but this just shows that some people are not suited to that sort of training.
As always, I judge a Chi Kung session by how I feel after I complete the session. The fact is, if I sit and do an hour of Chi Kung I don't get the results I get from a hard session of external training followed by just a couple minutes of quite breathing and relaxation.
Obviously the right intent has to be there otherwise it will not go beyond simple relaxation. If the intent is too strong you are not mentally relaxed.
Anyways, not trying to knock your way of doing it. I train this way now because of trying to be honest with myself with all things led to me having direct experience that tells me what is my truth for now ( things change ). Maybe in 5 years I will come back and say I was wrong, but I seriously doubt it.
If I am to follow this:
"Absorb What is Useful, Discard What is Useless"
then my Chi Kung practice cannot be exempt right ?
Lohan is primarily an External martial art, up until you reach the advanced levels and then it takes on a unique Internal method, this is not seen much as there are not many real traditional Lohan practitioners out there and most do not display their skill on videos.
The basic Qi Gong sets that most people are familiar with and which are essentially the beginning sets of Lohan are the ones already mentioned.
18 lohan is a chi kung form in Chan family CLF, different from lohan KF, sorry for any confusion.
Sure, but say you have a bad shoulder, i think we could all agree that an exercise that actually moves the shoulder would be more appropriate than a seated still meditation, it all depends on what you are looking for or need. Hard chi kung or soft, moving or still, the applications are as varied as are the methods. I chose the Hung example precisely because it is a hard style (at the beginning ) and the acupuncture example for therapy. I teach chi kung at a massage school, and i assure you this is different from what i teach at KF, which is different from what i'm learning at acupuncture school.
__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel
Last edited by bobblehead; January 18th, 2008 at 08:52 PM.
I thought that 18 Lohan was close to or based on the original 18 exercises taught to the monks at Shaolin temple to help them deal with long periods of meditation, so it can be a part of various Kung Fu systems.
Chi Kung is wide and varied. In China, there are very specific medical applications for some movements. I think, Doughboy, you are speaking very clearly of your experience, and that you get more benefit from meditation than chi kung is fantastic self-awareness. There are times when I feel much more from the Taoist standing meditation I practice than the chi kung du jour. And, there are so many different kinds of chi kung forms, thousands, and they are profoundly different in practice and results.
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"The power of a punch is controlled by the depth of the will behind that punch" - Hsing-Yi Manual
-- Dharma-Zen Tai Chi Studio
Here is Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen, very close to how i learned.
Here's Master Chan performing about two thirds of the 18 Lohan that we practice.
Here is some of the medical chi kung i do and prescribe, i teach the "circles" part to the massage students, as well as some Hung to strengthen the wrists.
So hard chi kung, first part of video 1 (or the whole thing, depending on who you ask), IS isometrics, but with the added benefit of being in context with the style.
The Chan stuff is therapeutic, but focuses on systems, ie. shen, jing etc. while the Taoist stuff works individual (or rather pairs) of meridians.
So to avoid the hijack, i'm with clfsean, stay in the system, ie clf...
__________________
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool, than to open it and prove it so." KungFuTze
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." T. Geisel
Try this one ( or the variation, or both ). It is great for building intense tendon strength and grip strength in the hands/wrists/arms and the added benefit of doing Horse Stance at the same time.
The first variation I learned on a Chi Kung course I went on a few years ago. The alternate way was shown to me by a guy who learned it from Paul Vunak ( though I've seen it on various fitness sites like rossboxing as well )
Take a bunch of Chopstix, make half of them facing the other way so that the bunch is the same size on both sides. Grip the chopstix with both hands ( knuckles up ) with your arms out straight in front of your body. Sit in a low Horse Stance and relax. Now as if you are holding a pepper grinder sideways you grind the chopstix with the back and forth twisting motion of your hands ( hope I explained it ok ) . Go into a meditative state by relaxing, letting go of your worries of the day, and breathing deeply into your Dan Tien ( or abdomen area depending how you see things ).
The alternate is instead of chopstix you use a normal stick and you attach a weight connected to the stick with a string. The twisting of the stick wraps the string and you lift the weight till it's near your hands then you lower it.
Depends what your goals are. You can even combine the physical elements of the second one with Chi Kung state of mind. Can't hurt.
Now that is a complex little booklet to have to try and follow
I recognised the last two exercises but if I followed the instructions correctly the version I practice is very different.
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High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me
Originally
Posted By: CLF Devil
Ummm . . . problems? I'm not trying to learn a new style. I just want to do some basic exercises to help with concentration, relaxation, stress relief, etc. Like how you stretch to loosen up your muscles.
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There's a really good book by Wong Kiew Kit on Chi Kung. It's had two printings, the most recent one is: The Art of Chi Kung
Master Cheong Cheng Leong says that without Qigong, any external martial arts practice is futile, because qigong is essential for keeping the body healthy and able to perform martial arts into old age. Whether or not you believe that's the case I still think qigong is very beneficial for a number of reasons. The main exercises I do are the Silk Weaving Exercises, which are mostly very simple and easy to learn, and also don't take long to perform.
). It is great for building intense tendon strength and grip strength in the hands/wrists/arms and the added benefit of doing Horse Stance at the same time. 
