kongjin

Interested in those who know about kongjin development and accomplishments

not what was read or heard instead what have you seen, or done and what are your ideas about development
I hope not to make this a debate if it really exists or not
(though I'm sure someone will make it an issue)
examples of healing, movement of objects, martial abilities, astral projection, illuminations, substance altering, imobility training, or whatever your area of expierence is...
I am really very interested in those who have actual expierence

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Here's one kongJin (attack by air) in Tai Chi Chuan there is energy termed "cover". I have faced a would be attacker in a real situation he did not know me at all. We faced off, my energy was so intense he decided he would not fight and let it go. By cover I froze his attack (not allowing him to move) and weakened his energy level. There is a saying.. To kill is not correct; to not kill is not correct; for the opponent to mentally surrender is correct. We could get into some mystical and superhuman applications but supernormal is more like it. I may have some more to add I'll check back. Peace for now.

One of the great difficulties with "KongJing" is a lack of definition as to what it should refer to / encompass. For some this is a good thing as it is supposd to represent the "higher levels" and thus should not be too limited by definitions forced on from outside. For others, this itself is a severe limitation as one can be talking about radically different things (for example, this is the first time I have seen astral projection mentioned in such a context. Should this not form part of ShenGong)

Within healing I am more familiar with talk of WaiQi (also spelt WeiQi - as in emitted Qi rather than just the narrower technical referal to the Qi of the external tissues and its extension outside of the physical structure and mass). I have trained various exercises to develop such things, including hand positions, qualities (yin, yang, hot, cold, penetrating, intense, narrow, broad etc.), working with a candle flame etc. Sensations and effect can be induced.

Movement of objects - I have never witnessed such things where the object was inanimate

Martial abilities - I have heard KongJing talked about here as a way of training _sensitivity_ rather than developing miracolous drop them from across the room stuff. Sensitivity both for the person trying to develop such energy control, and also for the partner "receiving" such emission. In this way it might be considered adjunct training to TongJing (listening ability).
I do have a demonstration, not entirely unlike some of the Aikido leading techniques that I have seen archival footage of, that will throw an opponent without physical contact being made. Partner punches with speed and meaning at head, step to the side and slightly back, hand expresses towards punching arm, makes "contact" and draws forward. Arm then expresses towards chest of partner. Usually, partner overbalances forwards as they follow the drawing hand, then "runs away" from the arm to the chest. No contact is made and they hit the floor. However, psychology plays a big part (though maybe not all).

Astral projection - ShenGong. No experience with projection in this way

Illuminations - do not understand description

Substance altering - substance is substance. One does not alter it per se. Maybe change state etc. I have never personaly witnessed such things

Immobility - similar to what WuMingJen writes (and one can use all sorts of psychological and body language tricks with this as well). Also, aware of how to "blank" the mind of attacker (always taught to move in to the gaps in awareness of the attacker. Where there are none, create)

my, by now habitual, caveat once again rears its head - do not neglect to train physical. There is a saying ... train Qi and not Gong, when old, all emptiness.

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

to clarify....The termonolgy used is general so many people have so many names, the name is not the issue

I am only asking for those who have had some experience to share, I would like to see if a discussion is possable on events not personal points of view, seams some people in some post only want their belief to be heard.

The question is simply to open up what someone has seen or done and to talk about it. Hopfully talk not debate

Rob..shengong I'm not sure if that is the corrct use of shen however I don't always use Chinese terms to me they are just common words that most can relate to in general terms, becasue so many have differnt understandings of the meanings they sometimes confuse the questions.

Chi qi prana kundalini energy spirituality etc.... are conceptual at best, I would like to exsplore some actual expierences. so for now maybe we can just call it peanut butter

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

From Taoist point of view, such things as "astral projection" (not too keen on the term myself) occurs when Jing-Qi-Shen alchemical cycle is completed and the _shen_ can be released, usually from YinTang (thrid eye point) or BaiHui (point on crown of head). So yes, ShenGong. It should be noted that this is _not_ to be toyed with, or anything other than very advanced stuff.

other than that, I've said everything I have to mention for the moment

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

well as I stated before I would like to avoid getting too involved in the terminolgy issues and see what people have to say about their actual experiences. such as wu's post

as far as advanced stuff, I would like to hear what people have seen or done that is advanced or not,

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Rightyo Ho ... now we know what's going on ...

which (if any) of the illustrations and practices that I give would you like to discuss (everything I mention I have personal experience with)

or maybe you would like to add an example yourself

seems like it might be interesting

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

the example wu gave sounded as if it were a sort of vibration control, maybe his vibrations he emitted or the vibrations of the location and the event. vibrations often confusing term are "felt" or senced and becasue of this some systems develope a sensativity to them. Experience where this has been applyed would be a good example.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

Sorry I know I'm always a pain, I'm just new to of this! But how do you emitt vibrations And whats vibrating

to try to answer the question at a basic level a vibration is a sence or a feeling like when you walk into someones house you can feel them even if they are not there, ( like parents house or grandparents house) sometimes you get good or bad vibes off someone around you,
as oposed to vibrations being a wave form in static air that can cause a ripple effct through an atmosphere, these are more related to people. Phychics claim they read these, some claim an ahura is a visual vibratic field, some think of feeling someone's chi as feeling the vibration each may not be exact but each is an example of the way people describe in general terms.

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

As aqira says, "vibes" are that feeling when you walked into the house as a child having done something wrong, and you knew you were in trouble even before you saw the vengeful parent ...

in this way, we often think about such things "impatterning" an environment when someone is under extremes of emotion - such that the "energy" of the emotional feeling just sort of over-flows the body

peng (wardoff) may be practised similarly to Wu Ming Jen's example - such that the _intent_ in the motion is almost physicaly felt (in the same way as the naughty child feels his stomach drop and starts shaking ...)

this use of the intent is present at some level or other in all IMA (I Quan makes particular use of it, XingI often "takes ownership" of the space in front before stepping into it, TaiJi can also help to lead into emptiness with rollback in this fashion, it seems to vary with school and influence in BaGua)

one could get all "phsyics" and say that all stuff "vibrates" - Quantum Mechanics gives wave-particle-duality, gives rise to thinking in terms of "energy packets" (or better, probability density functions). There is a similarity here maybe

it seems to me that both the "leading" example I gave, and the creating "gaps" in the partner's mind are also using this same thing

as to how it's trained ... just seems that training gets increasingly that way once a certain physical standard is reached. Training might progress in the following manner:

1. learning the physical positioning of each end posture
2. learning the gross movement of the transitions
3. slowly integrating the two smoothly, such that each part "frees" the body to move to the next. This requires a certain "awareness" of what is happening inside
4. "awareness" turns to slightly more active form "intention" - at this stage difference is not having mind observing from outside, but from within, as a part of the movement. The two come to be the same thing
5. "intention" broadens in the same way as did noting one thing creating freedom for the next. Without losing the "mind-in-body" feeling, one may then start to "lead" with the intention. The standard four energies may each be worked with in this way (wardoff, rollback .etc.)

you also see similar development in pushing hands ... first one must be on balance and centered before one can be aware of ones own center. This in turn is a pre-requsite for being aware of the partner's center ...

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

“	Originally posted by RobT As aqira says, "vibes" are that feeling when you walked into the house as a child having done something wrong, and you knew you were in trouble even before you saw the vengeful parent ... RT	”

So is that the 6th sense

What physically causes the vibrations/vibes How do you get from an emtion to emitting a vibe
What out the subconscious mind reading the body lanuage of the other person

kuanti - I clarify where I can ... and if not I have to admit I don't know (read the signature at the bottom of the post)

about sub-conscious interpretation of body language: I'm a strong believer in this. If one knows what body langauge signifies what, this may be used to help you communicate more effectively (or, in a negative sense, to manipulate others). However, this wouldn't explain times where the other party was not yet in sight (think back to being a child - that must have been a few situations that at least seemed like this)

as an aside, I am all for the scientific method, but the truly scientific process must be followed - i.e. looking at the actuality _before_ forcing intellectual structures and pre-existing theories onto it. (I assume you're an experimentalist ... for theorists it works slightly differently - you formulate ideas and have others test them for you)


what physicaly causes ... x ... ask the same question about
a./ thought
b./ gravity
c./ a piece of music that moves you (why should it anyway ... )


what about the famous ZanShin test in Maasaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan ninpo taijutsu (yes, ninjitsu) at the 5th dan level

[you meditate kneeling, Hatsumi stands behind you with a bokken. When he is ready, he suddenly swings, really meaning to kill you. Successful applicants are already rolling out of the way. He used to do it with a live blade I am told]

this is perfectly doable. I have used it is a demonstration (response to a punch - again intending to really hurt - while blindfolded). It is the intention, you see ...

may be ask me about it if/ when we meet (as long as you don't after a few drinks in the pub )

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

or to detach to be non-material the non-material reality the scientist swear does not exist though the results do.

(this usually gets rob going)

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You are not where you have been and you are not where you are going you are only here.

material reality ... non-material reality

why not just reality. (that's reality, fullstop)

RT

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"What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" - Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus