Taiji 9 Levels and Theory

aaradia · #31 (**permalink**) April 9th, 2007, 05:05 PM

“	Originally Posted By: eight fist I will post what I have learned about the energies but I would like to hear more from others first... Anyone???	”

Sorry Eightfist,This discussion is way past my level of experience. I am reading it avidly though!
-aaradia

**eight fist** · #32 (**permalink**) April 10th, 2007, 04:21 PM

So again to refer to the levels of Taiji these energies are usually taught beginning in level one (at least referred to and given a small explanation) of course the cyclic nature of taiji training will keep you referring back to your understanding of each energy and that understanding will deepen with time. I am still constantly trying to find the right words to describe them to myself let alone others. That having been said I digress.

The thirteen standard energies are referred to by their Chinese names here and they differ somewhat between styles, although I have only studied Chen and Yang so any Wu, Wu Hao, Sun players etc please add anything you can.

Chen //// Yang
Peng-wardoff //// Peng-wardoff
Lu-rollback, pulling of opponent //// Lu- roll back
Ji- Press/squeeze, coming forward //// Ji - Press/squeeze
An- Down Power/rooted power //// An-push
Cai- Pull Down/ pluck //// cai- pull down
Lieh- Split/separate //// lieh- split
Zhou-Elbow Strike //// Zhou- Elbow
Kao- Strike or bump with shoulder,back,hips,etc //// Kao- Shoulder/lean
Teng- sudden upward angled strike //// Step Forward
Shan- Sudden emptying downwards //// Retreat back
Zhe- bend/close //// look left
Kong- sudden emptiness //// gaze right
Huo- overall smooth and flowing //// central equilibrium

Ok so this an overview of the terms from each style though there are a great many similarities between them, their practical application and manifestation in the practice are not quite the same. Of course this will differ greatly depending on what Chen style and yang style you practice as far as the amount of difference or similarity between them.

Now lets get specific.

Peng- wardoff is a crappy translation if you ask me of this energy. Peng is an outward expanding force that is present in all taiji movements (according to most). The vary creation of the correct posture / structure of the practice, even before movement involves an expansion of the body to create the structure- peng. Now in Yang style I would say the peng is a more round and large feeling, like a large ball or sphere filled with air (qi if you want to use that word) it is directly related to the pillar training and connection of the pillar or cylinder to the spine, but that is another topic.
Chen style tends to favor a tighter more spiraling feel to its peng energy. So rather than a ball filled with air, expanding solely from its center as in yang, the expansion takes place both inside the limbs in the form of spiraling energy from dantien when the posture is created. As well as outside in the immediate space of the player (which is more like the yang sphere I described earlier. The tough thing about this forum is that in text it is VERY difficult to describe a feeling that is generally only transmitted "beyond words and scriptures" via touching the teacher. So without going into further explanation and illustration of Peng through examples I will leave it here.

So like how else do you/your style/ see Peng?

Neil

LoneTiger · #33 (**permalink**) April 10th, 2007, 10:02 PM

Just to take things in a combative direction.
Peng is useful to gain a reaction, expand into the opponent and when you meet resistance then use their force. Peng should be light, not heavy, it needs to be variable in the blink of an eye and should not be over committed. If your peng is over committed, clumsy, or heavy, the opponent can easily use your force before you have time to react.
"The opponent moves first, yet I arrive before him"

eight fist
Are you from Yang Sau Chung's (Yang Chen Fu's eldest son) line by any chance?

**eight fist** · #34 (**permalink**) April 11th, 2007, 12:29 PM

Lonetiger.
First of all nice post, I was only referring to a philosophical and form interpretation of Peng, nice of you to bring it into the combative side so well.
I have had a few Yang style teachers (I actually started there and then switched to Chen, though recently my teacher has asked to see more yang out of me). My current shifu is a part of Yang Sau Chung's line from what I have gathered. Now the question is, how did you know? Is there a specific methodology to his lines teachings or theory? My other teachers for yang go back to Yang Jian Hou/Yang Shao Hou. Then of course the Chen style is from Chen FaKe/Hong Junsheng/Chen Zhonghua.

Can anyone else say more about peng or should we move on?

**TaichiMantis** · #35 (**permalink**) April 11th, 2007, 01:36 PM

Neil, I think you would really enjoy these articles by my kung fu uncle, Sifu Randy Choy of Honolulu. Since I am just starting into tai chi, I'm only into beginning principles; but after reading the three articles, I'm very intrigued by the training methods/levels....and I now better understand the purpose of push hands.

• Part 1: training intelligently; circular movement; dantien; power; forgotten principles
• Part 2: natural theory; 13 sections of Chen; white goose or white crane; and push-hands
• Part 3: interpreting energy through Taiji push-hands

Again, it is time to pull out the rule book to remind students of the principles of Taijiquan and the reasons for practicing this exercise. My rule book states that "peng" trains you to inflate your energy by warding off and slanting energy upwards. This is similar to the way a river supports a boat. "Lu" is a pulling-back energy. You want to draw your opponent off-balance, so you have to be crafty. "Ji" means to press forward, like bouncing a ball on a wall. "An" means to push, similar to the motion of the ocean as its waves rise and fall.

**eight fist** · #36 (**permalink**) April 11th, 2007, 09:13 PM

Thanks for the articles they are GREAT! Of course finding out that your grandmaster Pan Wing Chow and mine Hong Jun Sheng were gongfu brothers makes me biased.... but GREAT ARTICLES....
So what about Lu energy?? Anyone?

LoneTiger · #37 (**permalink**) April 12th, 2007, 03:44 AM

eight fist

“	Now the question is, how did you know? Is there a specific methodology to his lines teachings or theory?	”

My assumption was based off the information you posted regarding your curriculum. I admire YSC, I think he has one of the most holistic in his approach to teaching and his skill was superb. The approach taken is typically 'outside to in' with the large gross motor movements being taught first and then slowly more and more detail is added until finally all things are refined to very small movements.

As for lu, if you want to dislodge something you need to consider its root. If you wish to pull a plant from the ground you do not simply pull on it from any point, you must make adjustments to ensure that you will pull out the entire plant and not simply a branch.

**eight fist** · #38 (**permalink**) April 14th, 2007, 03:52 PM

LoneTiger- Your posts are a great addition to this discussion, please continue on with us..

Alright... Lu.

Rollback in English seems to portray a receiving of force from the opponent and adapting to it with solid structure. Now I Have received some fairly different approaches to Lu from my Chen and Yang teachers (save my Shixiong who practices both as a wholistic approach to taiji) but of course they come from the same root (no pun intended).

One explanation I can offer of Lu is to 'lead to emptiness'. Allowing the opponents force to continue in its intended direction until the chance for the opponent to uproot himself (in a beginner practitioner) presents itself. By redirecting the force in a relaxed way and removing your own root from its path the opponents force is drawn past you into emptiness and the opponent loses their root from over extension.

However against a more skilled opponent the adding of your force is necessary as a skilled taiji player will not allow their root to be removed under their own power. Thus you receive the force coming from the opponent by 'rolling back' or Lu and when the time is right add a suitable amount of your own power to the desired direction of the emptiness you are creating to unbalance and uproot the other player. Just as Lone tiger put it "if you want to dislodge something you need to consider its root. If you wish to pull a plant from the ground you do not simply pull on it from any point, you must make adjustments to ensure that you will pull out the entire plant and not simply a branch." a great deal of timing and sensitivity is needed of course to know the whens and wheres of applying power in this way but that is what Taiji training is all about right?

Lu is also involved in direction of the force being absorbed and redirected. It differs from Tsai (cai) or pluck in direction and generally is slightly downwards and past your own root. However this cannot be construed as an absolute since it can be applied in many differing ways to accomplish its goal of leading the opponent to emptiness.

Add more to it.... each energy can be defined in so many ways, whats your definition?

**eight fist** · #39 (**permalink**) April 18th, 2007, 06:10 PM

Cmon.... there are more taiji players around here I can hear their slow shuffling feet......

**eight fist** · #40 (**permalink**) April 22nd, 2007, 01:40 PM

Ji
Chen and Yang (from my training at least) see Ji much the same way. English again translates this energy as "press" (to be honest I really dont like most of the 'traditional' translations, I felt they were misleading in many ways but I digress.
Ji is manifested in many different ways, one of them having to do a great deal with powerful structure and basic physics. Two objects cannot occupy the same space, should they try to do so the object with the more powerful (read rooted, solid, etc) structure will remove the weaker object- be it by bouncing it out of the space or destroying its structure. Many of the Ji applications I have learned are just this, taking a powerful structure (like the ji technique in grasp sparrows tail (yang) or press (chen) and moving it forward into the opponents space/structure and watching the results.
I mention watch the results because ji is not a pushing or striking with the limbs type of movement but rather an advance into/through the opponent while maintaining your structure. Should a little power expression (fajin) find its way into the mix to drive the power deeper into the opponents body so be it.
The concept pf "moving forward" mentioned in Yang style (though also performed in chen) is obvious in the last example so I do not think we need to continue with it. Forward energy is very important however and it must be mentioned that forward energy can be created without actually stepping, a simple transfer of weight in a structurally correct posture will suffice. As your movements continue to get quieter this movement wil become less and less obvious and some great masters are almost imperceptable.

The interpretation of ji as squeeze is also a great method for using this energy. This is a bit of a tricky one to describe in text so forgive me should it make no sense at all. While pushing (or fighting) with the opponent one enters their space and the same is done by the opponent into your space. The ji energy can be used to 'own' the space you occupy in a larger sense than just your own personal body space (the three circles of taiji practiced in beginner/intermediate/advanced levels deal with this intimitely however that is best left for another discussion). For example with your right foot equal to or behind your opponents lead foot and your right hand placed against their hand or chest you are both sharing a same space. However by closing the gap (vertically speaking but on the horizonatal axis) between your right hand and foot you can occupy more of the space than your opponent, thus entering and taking away their own space and squeezing or pressing them out of it. A solid structure with the body is essential of course but the idea of squeezing out the space an opponent is standing in is common in applications of push hands, In Chen it is seen often as an application of crane spreads wings or change palms three times. Yang of course uses the same crane spreads wings this way and I have seen press and single whip used for this application. So press or Ji can also be 'squeeze' when applied to space, the opponent just happens to be in the way... poor opponent.
Hope this makes some sense, Taijiquan is very difficult to describe in text. So after that somewhat simple explanation of ji lets move onto An.

Anyone???

LoneTiger · #41 (**permalink**) April 24th, 2007, 10:40 AM

Its a shame more people are not posting, still you are doing a fine job eight fist.

Ji (in my rather limited understanding of Chinese) does mean 'squeeze' or 'crowd'. For example if you are on a bus with lots of people you can say 'tai ji le' which roughly translates to 'too crowded'. I tend to view Ji as a fairly sharp short jing where as An to me is more of a long jing. I sometimes use the analogy of playing pool, ji is like the two balls colliding and one being forced out. An is more similar to the way that the cue is used to move the white ball.

To make things a little less confronting for other players it should be pointed out that these are often old terms and exist on occasion outside of common usage in modern Chinese language. Their meaning is not set in stone and people have been debating about the meanings for a very long time. Many different practioners from different styles give variable interpretations, there is no right or wrong, just interpretation. Dont be afraid to post your understandings, even if very different from what is currently being discussed.

**eight fist** · #42 (**permalink**) April 24th, 2007, 12:51 PM

I very much like your analogy of the pool balls. Ji as a short energy and an as a long energy is very nice and makes a lot of sense. The squeeze or croweded itranslation is just what I was trying to get at with the 'taking up space' explanation. Thats is just it, Great post!

I also have to agree that these terms are not common Chinese and are used in this context especially rarely so interpretataion is a major player in their understanding. I would like to hear more about other peoples opinions on these energies though. Hope to see more soon!

ngstudent · #43 (**permalink**) April 26th, 2007, 03:03 PM

We focus on standing, breathing, sung and posture/alignment for months before even begining any form.

Danny

ngstudent · #44 (**permalink**) April 26th, 2007, 03:08 PM

energy is what you make it, We try to get too caught up in names. Train feal and apply. Or at least that is how I was taught. Interesting information in this discussion though. Please keep it up. Some nice analogies I had not heard before.

Danny

**eight fist** · #45 (**permalink**) May 4th, 2007, 09:24 PM

Ok everyone, lets continue on.
Danny (Ng Student) I would have to agree that all the names can get in the way. however I would also say that the terminology for these different types of energy are important for the sake of discussion, be it student to student or master to disciple. Cmon lets move on now...
An .... Anyone?