Taiji 9 Levels and Theory

Ok,
I am looking to discuss the 9 levels of taijiquan training and the theory, concepts and principals that go with them. Posture of the spine, the alignment of the acupoints, the method of kua movement, generation of spiral power through the dantiens movement, all the 'secret' stuff. So lets start with level one, learning the set and move on to level two, posture training, etc. Please mention the style of taiji you study so we can see differences between our systems.

go for it I look forward to an illuminating discussion.

So I will start with a little bit about the levels:

1- Beginner - Beginner: Learning the form and basics
2- Beginner - Intermediate: Posture
3- Beginner - Advanced: the movement of dantien
4- Intermediate - Beginner: 1st circle practice, kua rotation
5- intermediate - intermediate: large ball training, 1st bow
6- intermediate - Advanced:5 bows, 2nd circle practice
7- advanced - beginner: 7 bows, 3rd circle practice, small balls in joints
8- advanced - intermediate: more later
9- advanced - advanced: ????

So lets go into detail about each level and what it entails!

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Subscribing, this should prove an interesting read.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

Wow, didn't know there were 9 levels. So by that guide I'm at level 1 pretty much. It's nice to see a breakdown of a long-term curriculum for tai chi, so much of my experience has been "come in, learn the form, practice the form, maybe I'll teach you some sensitivity drills, the end."

So -- why would Posture be taught after the form? Is that covered in basics or is more advanced material taught in Level 2?

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usually level 2 gets pretty in depth about posture training and movement in the correct posture. I am going to wait a bit though to see what other posts come before I blab on what I have learned.

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"Zen is like riding a Tiger,
Later you become the Tiger."

“	Originally Posted By: eight fist 1- Beginner - Beginner: Learning the form and basics 2- Beginner - Intermediate: Posture 3- Beginner - Advanced: the movement of dantien 4- Intermediate - Beginner: 1st circle practice, kua rotation 5- intermediate - intermediate: large ball training, 1st bow 6- intermediate - Advanced:5 bows, 2nd circle practice 7- advanced - beginner: 7 bows, 3rd circle practice, small balls in joints 8- advanced - intermediate: more later 9- advanced - advanced: ???? So lets go into detail about each level and what it entails!	”

Good idea.

First question concerns learning the form. Do you learn the entire form before moving on to posture and the rest? It would seem to me the form, as a vehicle to teach basics, posture, movment, etc., would be teaching all this as you learn each movement within the form.

Next, what about aplications? I've heard that studying martial aplications is what gives the best understanding. At what point do you introduce the aps?

Does Taiji study principles and concepts? The form would be the vehicle for learning these as well. When, and how, are they introduced?

Since I've yet to find a school and start, knowing what to look for will help me tremendously. Thanks.

Dan C

I'm not sure I agree with sectioning Tai Chi practice off like that.

I will say that for progression, I've always stressed:

1) Posture/Movement

2) Breathing

3) Relaxation (works with Breathing usually)

4) Power Generation

5) Application


Or more simply, you start off with "hollow" mimic style movements. Then you fill the movements up with "chi" (I hate that term). Lastly you release the energy within.

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"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
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The levels I posted are just check points in development. The student is sometimes taught theories and principals past their actual level of skill. Each of the levels is reached when the skills of the previous levels can be done unconciously.
Application and power expression training usually come alongside each level, the higher the level the more involved each of the training methods and usages become. From a standard 'punch of covering the hand' hitting someone, to the punch having a powerful jin generated by the rotation of dantien and the use of the kua. That kind of thing.

__________________
"Zen is like riding a Tiger,
Later you become the Tiger."

K I got a little more time....

Dan,
The form does teach the basic rudiments of posture and all that while you learn the movements. But to actually have the Taiji posture takes detailed instruction and a good deal of time before it becomes natural. The alignment of the spine can be easily learned but it takes a lot of dediccation for it to become easy and second nature.

The other thing is that the levels as I posted them are not complete. I did not go into every principal and training method at each level. Application training should start if you ask me at the very beginning. However at the beginning they are applied with a great deal of external (li) rather than jin. The transformation to jin takes time ad understanding. The other thing about applications is that as the practitioner gets more skilled they change. No longer is a movement a simple sideways break of a limb but a spiralling jin created in the dantien and tranferred to the opponents body by way of tranformation into other energies (peng,lu,ji,an,kao,lieh,tsai,zhou). Each of these energies has to be trained in the form and by itself with drills in order to fully integrate the body into a whole allowing the player to create and use them.

so in Level One:
Learn the sequence of the form by mimicking the teacher.
Learn the basics of the circles of Taiji
begin silk reeling practice to open the kua and 'wake' the dantien to movement.
understand the meaniing of double weighted
understand 'empty and full'
learn the meaning of yin/yang reversal in the body movements and in the learning process.
learn the basics of push hands.

thats a good amount of the level one principals as I see them.

__________________
"Zen is like riding a Tiger,
Later you become the Tiger."

eight fist, thanks for the clarification.

Dan C

hey everyone. i practice cheng man-ching's short form. my teachers oral instruction consisted mainly of relax, do the form and don't worry about it. it seemed at first to be a bit of a zen approach, but it really paid off. cheng man-ching himself had a nine step "formula", though the emphasis was more on a relaxed, natural progression. his formula consisted of three levels(earth, man, heaven), each of which had three stages. the three stages for each level respectively:

Man; relaxing the tendons from fingers to shoulders, relaxing the tendons from the feet to the hips(kua), relaxing the spine.

Earth; sinking the chi to the tan tien, extending the chi to the soles of the feet and palms of the hands, opening the three gates(wei lu to the niwan).

Heaven; listening, understanding, perfect clarity.

the first develops the sinews, the second develops the joints, the third develops the awareness. since it is based on a natural progression, each stage is a continuation based on a deeper understanding of earlier stages. while the understanding and practices change and evolve to reflect our development, the primary focus remains constant.

imho the ideal approach to teaching depends on the student in particular. a really good teacher could demonstrate and explain all the essentials in ten minutes flat. how much or how long it takes someone to grasp them depends on the student. no listening = no understanding. yang = time invested, yin = effort.
when i read the classics, rather than seeing a checklist of the points you need to maintain, i see the same thing repeated over and over from every different perspective they could think of. the form is based on the principles, if one tries to follow the principles the form, the postures, the silk-reeling, the fajing, the (fill-in-the-blank) all occur totally spontaneously. without even trying. and yes it takes time. lots of time.


listening, understanding, clarity. simple, easy, direct. it takes everything to whole new level.

This is complicated for me by having trained with teachers from very different lineages with very different styles of teaching. It's also complicated because I do a lot of yoga and have come to a common set of movement principles from both sides.

There's a danger with a "steps" approach that people will think learning is linear - stage 1 over tick the box and done kind of thing. In reality it's more circular - you may be learning about "small balls within the joints" at the same time as you are refining your ability to mimic your teacher in performing a form. You may learn mutliple forms or multiple styles so you may be at the first stage in the form you are practicing but with awareness of advanced stages because of previous study.

For me it all comes back to basic alignment - you issue energy/yield/stick because you are aligned correctly and can maintain that under varied pressure. The levels are a way to gradually refine that alignment and replace external correction with the expression of internal awareness. That means I've carefully kept myself at level 2 for a long time - but I feel it contains the other levels.

Still, this was new to me, and very interesting, so looking at my training I'd say level 1 was learning standing, footwork drills, silk reeling, basic conditioning drills, and the shape of the 24 form. Level 2 was learning all the same things in more depth. Level 3 introduced level 1 of the 42 form [like giving a guy who's just passed his test the keys to a ferrari and asking him to drive it flat out round a tricky course] and basic push hands exercises (seven point pushing) and more depth on the old stuff.

Level 4 brought in level 1 of the sword form, kicking drills, proper push hands, and application basics - real tai chi.

Level 5 brought a shift in emphasis to chen style, a new teacher, new chi kung, a whole lot more verbal explanation - and further development of stuff from earlier levels like "move from the dan tien".

Level 6 kind of merged into level 5 and I'm just sticking my head over the railings to look in on level 7... but it doesn't seem to contain anything "new" - just like all the other levels it contains the same stuff but in more detail and with more application

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High mountains are a feeling
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Why would one want 9 levels for form practice only? Taijiquan is a martial art. No one who can not use his taiji to fight with can be called a high-level practitioner.

In the another 5 level list, I wouldnt place "breath" before relaxing. That would mean that breath has been taught but is forced and unnatural. One must first learn to relax.

Edit: Also, I agree with John.It is very hard to state a linear learning process. It is absolutely more circular. When alignment gets better, relaxation becomes deeper. When relaxation becomes better, breath becomes deeper. Better breath will then again help the alignment, etc. It is the same circle over and over again.

Also - sometimes things needs to be re-learn or be taught again in a new way. Often when something new is taught,the student will need to change things he had been taught earlier.

I don't think any one is describing a 9 level forms only practice.

It might help to get some definitions down.

Putting a little more thought into this the three "balls" you mention could be what we call the "three rings" (aligning and disrupting three major joints - eg hip-knee-ankle or wrist-elbow-shoulder) or the three conceptual "balls" some people describe - between the knees, between the arms, inside the waist or it could even be the three balanced spheres which stack vertically in some esoteric seated meditation illustrations...

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Originally Posted By: john100 I don't think any one is describing a 9 level forms only practice.	”

Really?

“	1- Beginner - Beginner: Learning the form and basics 2- Beginner - Intermediate: Posture 3- Beginner - Advanced: the movement of dantien 4- Intermediate - Beginner: 1st circle practice, kua rotation 5- intermediate - intermediate: large ball training, 1st bow 6- intermediate - Advanced:5 bows, 2nd circle practice 7- advanced - beginner: 7 bows, 3rd circle practice, small balls in joints 8- advanced - intermediate: more later 9- advanced - advanced: ????	”

Form and basics are mentioned, but no push hands, apps. or sparring.

“	Originally Posted By: Bao I wouldnt place "breath" before relaxing. That would mean that breath has been taught but is forced and unnatural. One must first learn to relax.	”

I disagree. Many people, quite honestly, don't know how to breath. When you teach someone how to breath, specifically deep breathing, the mental focus shifts to that. What this is doing is helping to remove excess tension. From there, relaxation naturally occurs.

I should also note that telling someone to "relax" rarely works. Most people think they are relaxd, but aren't. Others lose their form when they "relax". You almost have to trick people into really relaxing so they know what it feels like.

__________________
"You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet"- Iron & Silk
"I see no virtue where I smell no sweat"
"Arm yourself because no one else here will save you" - Chris Cornell