taichi and exercising

For those full-on taichi practitioners, do you attach importance to cardiovascular exercise and muscle building?

In what way do you supplement it with doing your taichi exercise? Do you think other forms of exercise can be detrimental to from a relaxed taichi body? E.G. Can doing weights be detrimental?

Do you jog, swim, jump-rope regularly?

I do Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture set at full speed (well, as "full speed" as a mildly overweight 49 year old--which is what I am--can do it!) and power. Put another way I do it like I was doing a stock Northern Shaolin set. I set a timer for 5 minutes and however far I get in terms of reps...that is it. I do 3, 5 minute rounds of "Full Speed Cheng Man Ching Taiji" every other day.

It is enough to wear me out and when I tell "hard core" Cheng Man Ching types that I "abuse" the 37 Posture form this way, they start foaming at the mouth and ****ting in their pants.

All of which is the fun of Chinese martial arts in Taiwan.

take care,
Brian

“	do you attach importance to cardiovascular exercise and muscle building?	”

Difficult to explain. Yes, and all the evidence I've seen indicates that's traditional for tai chi. No, in that I don't go running or lift weights any more.

Personally I use yoga because the kind of "expanding" strength, flexibility, and fitness it provides fits very neatly into my tai chi and I enjoy it more than lifting weights or going running. Also, it fits in with the idea of "internal" or "soft" or whatever you want to call it strength which is and isn't different from more common strength training.

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"Cheng Man Ching's 37 posture set at full speed"

Brian, does that leave you panting? I sounds more interesting than straight jogging though. Does it include fajing?

John 100: just slightly off topic but may interest you. This post from Formosa Neijia about a guy who could fold himself into a box.
Formosa Neijia - Exploring Taiwan’s Martial Arts » BKF: On Yoga pt.1

I'm still curious about weights as well. I've heard doing weights hard will cause qi-blockage and slow down your striking speed...

Hi Hakchigi, oh yeah, I am not in very good anaerobic shape so yes, I am dragging my tail by about the 3 minute mark. And yeah I try and put "some juice" (fajing) on the moves....although that fades about the 3 minute mark too!

I like it and use it like any Northern Shaolin form. I also have my dumbells and push up bars out on the patio and use both....although not as often as I should.

Weight training, body weight training, aerobics and anaerobic (i.e. interval training) are all part of the traditional taiji training regime.

take care,
Brian

“	I've heard doing weights hard will cause qi-blockage and slow down your striking speed...	”

There are a lot of missunderstandings about weight training out there. Most of them apply to weight training done badly. It might be worth searching this site for the subject - people who really know their stuff have posted on the topic in the past. The real issue is the kind of weight training. Bicep curls are not really where it's at. Rolling a large rock around the garden or taking a dumbell bar, locking a weight on only one end, holding the other end, and then lifting it from the ground over the head using a spiral of energy through the body - those are more traditional tai chi weight exercises.

I thought the article was interesting, espescially the end of the second part... my experience of hatha yoga and tai chi is very different to that described and the idea that yoga is a "static" practice a joke. It is true that although the body connects and flows to create strength in very similar ways in the two disciplines (I hate to talk about energy flow but what people using the phrase mean) it's rare to get a yoga teacher who shows their students how to fast twitch it rather than smoothly apply it even at speed. That balances with the fact it's rare to get a tai chi teacher who shows their students how to build and use it, not just throw it out in a form. The idea that yoga is about flexibility or wouldn't release tension is a typical outsiders mistake - but I'm sure there are advanced yogis who have made it. Certainly, in the uk, the dao yoga teacher's I've found have been a farce and a rip off - unlike the guy quoted, though, I'm not going to take a few examples as proof of a corrupt system.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

I would say listen to John. He's right on the mark.

If I remember There were some old pictures circulated on internet where old masters were using weights(created by heavy stones/sometimes Iron). I think emptyflower forum has it... dunno but they clearly showed all these masters using weights to train...

I think Master Yao (From Yi quan) also has some pics on his site with weights.

Oh btw You should also get bagua Journals from emptyflower. It has lots of things about internal martial arts.... I remember one Pic where Bagua master was training with HUGE(I mean really HUGE, bigger than this master) sword.

I try to find that pic and upload it... its really cool...
-TkdWarrior-

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Yeah, I was gonna say, get a full size broadsword and learn the basic drills. Popeye was a wimp.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Oh well, I couldn't find the one I was looking for... but this picture is also nice... Big Broad sword

Attached Images

bigsword.JPG (40.1 KB, 3 views)

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Finally Found it (I actually saw another photo with one of bagua posture.)
http://www.yin-stil-baguazhang.info/...eiqi_sword.jpg

Here you go with some more links
SYL Wushu Taiji Qigong Institute - Body Conditioning 3 - Weight Training
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/...cs/ironpow.jpg (John Painter with ball)
http://www.circlepalms.net/nss-folder/pictures/Fu4.jpg
-TkdWarrior-

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You should not worry about using weights while also practicing taiji, If your interested in doing both at the same time while improving your taiji look for a traditional 8kg Solid Stone Taiji ball and do your forms while rolling that between your hands. If that doesn't give you a workout nothing does. I've seen my Teacher do it, I tried once....I could barely keep the ball up nevermind doing anything with it!

I also know that my teachers master, while doesn't use sand bags to hit, will practice his taiji throws, never moving his feet, with a 400lb sand bag! (Keep in mind he's 70ish and can still do this without any strain showing on his face.)

So if you wanna workout on top of your taiji I say go for it!

Semper Fi,
Patrick

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The more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war. Therefore make your exercises bloodless battles, so that your battles are bloody exercises.

“	do your forms while rolling that between your hands	”

If that's too heavy to start get a waist high table and practice rolling the ball (heavier than 8kg better) on the table using silk reeling type moves - get your stance low enough that the ball is the right height...

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Hey this stuff is great! Thanks for the tips (sorry to take so long to read...) ... I'd like to get input from a taichi coach of some sort as well, but I have some dumbells I might use in with the form...
About that sword -mighty big. Don't think I could get a sword like that in Korea. Cool though...

Btw, when I first arrived in Korea I made some make-shift weights with a gym bag and 8 two litre plastic beer bottles (they sell beer in plastic bottles in korea -and I drank a lot of beer at the time). Did it mainly for strengthening legs and knees, coz I have a prob with my right knee.

“	Don't think I could get a sword like that in Korea	”

Plastic bottles full of water and held by the neck are a reasonable substitute in terms of weight, if not balance.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

“	Originally Posted By: john100 Plastic bottles full of water and held by the neck are a reasonable substitute in terms of weight, if not balance.	”

You mean two bottles on either side tied with a strap?

I also use two bottles, holding the neck end one in each hand, to try and develop wrist power... But I haven't been doing it diligently...