This is genuine skill that is hard to find these days. Awsome Tai Chi. Enjoy:
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
__________________ "Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san
"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...
That one was for real. A challenge match in 1954, held in Macau (wouldn't have been possible in mainland China at the time and maybe a venue in Hong Kong would have been either too expensive or illegal). Profits were supposedly given to charity.
The "flailing arms" are unusual, however keep in mind they were fighting under rules they had set up & agreed to, and using cultural preconceptions about fighting (fighting on the ground would not have been considered at all; showing one's style was probably a requirement). Neither had trained in Western-style boxing. The flailing arms are controlled (a lot of gwa choys being thrown) and a lot of circular blocks are seen, I think the effectiveness (or lack) of both defensive & offensive techniques is evident.
I read in another forum that after this fight, the Crane boxing grandmaster (Chan) began incorporating Western concepts into his school, including padded gloves, bagwork, and straightforward techniques.
__________________ "Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san
"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...
Originally
Posted By: Lugaldamhara
This is the one that caught my attention...
Is this for real? It seems to be a BIG event in China with a LOT of people....
Claims it's a REAL TC fight.... all with added sound effects and everything!!
At least they are doing a lot of that flailing arm stuff I se in a lot of CMA forms...
If this is real then it's no wonder these CMA guys get killed in MMA....
This is what lack of skill looks like. It may be skill in something, but it ain't fighting.
”
LOL, yeah I’ve seen that one before. What an embarrassment. Those two would get killed in a school playground, let alone a professional competition!
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
Yes, the added overdubbed sound effects got me too. Peng ... Pao ... Meooowwww ... Baaaaammmm ...
AFAIK, they thin guy who is about 30 years younger than the other dude asked rules that didn't allow any sort of grappling or clinching for the old dude who is a Taiji guy. Taiji with no clinching and grappling, erm ... Of course, he also wasn't very good, which I attribute to him not having trained for the last 20 years and thus only appearing in this exhibition match for charity. Forget about this fight, it was arrrrfulllll ... Unfortunately, I slightly agree that this "fight" shows the condition of some circles that time (1950s). I'm disappointed too about what sometimes gets handed as "original masterful gongggg-fuuu", or "deadly fights". No wonder that those people who really could fight were handed as gods.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
I wish there was a better quality video of the Macau fight. You can barely tell (it is easier to see in still photos) but the White Crane guy had his own blood running down his shirt for most of the fight. He later stated in an interview in Qi magazine that the Tai Chi guy left him covered with bruises.
As Sammy girl says, there were a lot of rules, even kicking was disallowed, the local police were worried someone would get killed.
The Tai Chi guy is from a style known for its grappling, which is why the White Crane guy didn't want any.
If any of you really think you could survive the punches being thrown, go visit Eddie Wu from wustyle.com and tell him you think his grandfather was a punk...
Trolling alarm. I'd say that a system that trains lots of manouvres to the limbs and chest to wrap, lead, lock up, destabilize and pull people qualifies as "grappling". Now we can of course go and call that "crude", "not very good as compared to ..." yadda yadda yadda. But it's GRAPPLING. Everything else I discuss AFTER you got your sorry ass to a a WELL KNOWN Taiji top dog who is known for his grappling and strength skills (to ITCCMA and Shaolin Do folks: no this is NOT your teacher) to grapple a bit with him, who will still be around for a couple of years at least.
As concerning this "fight", it plain s*cked. Even I wouldn't appear as inept, and I am sitting around on the couch for almost 10 years now and lose muscle by the minute. Someone who ever had even a LITTLE practical fighting skill would move his head away when getting struck at or gets his hands in between, that STILL works for me with lots and lots of years of no training. I still block 90% of what someone who can punch throws at me, instinctively, when you wake me up at 3 in the morning. Someone who steps in and does a windmill punch is a HOAX. Noone who learned CMA to really go at it I know fights not keeping his hands up or being wary of someone who steps in, or would not use a skillfull approach of setting up. The old guy has an excuse, he probably was not practicing anymore for a long time and isn't in the practicing business at all (like for example some Taiji master lineage folks who are simply medical doctors and business men, although they still practice a bit). The younger man who wanted to "make a name for himself" has not. I really really would have liked to meet someone of this silly crap circles who are so proud of their "internal strength" and cannot exhibit a LITTLE BIT of them in their moving, back when I was still having a lot of it. Someone who "has immense internal strength" has this in all his moving, like anyone who is powerful and well trained in sports. It didn't matter if I was doing squash, basketball, handball, bowling, skiing or football, or something I never learned before. I was obviously moving well, quick, precise. Not like this sorry excuse for an athlet. I might get a bit overboard, but I HATE that sh*tty claims of the freaks who place themselves infront of some wooden dummy and whack away, never moving their feet, and claim how powerful and what good a fighter they are. I would really, really like to once have had the chance to kick such a guys behind publically, hard, and for an extended amount of time, to get rid of this crappy claims and how CMA "looks like this". Unfortunately, I am not allowed to publish footage of Lo Man Kam fighting such bozos and tearing them a new *****, back when he was younger. Look at some lightweight boxer fighting for a title, this is what it looks like.
There is ONE, one single excuse I accept. And that is that this "White crane mastah" had FEAR, that this Wu style guy had enough power to really hurt him. Making him not commit to his actions and stay away from the guy. I would also accept if he didn't attack for real to not make the old guy lose face, but if that would have been the case, he wouldn't have challenged him in the first instance.
__________________ "Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases) "Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne "Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.
Last edited by Nik; September 8th, 2007 at 06:04 AM.
That first video was obviously a joke so I won't talk about that.
Lugaldamhara,
The video you posted is really crap I agree. To be honest, I have never seen a really good Taijiquan fighting clip on the net.
But, I have definitely learned from a real Taijiquan master for almost 2 years. Though you might find the description quite a lot different from what you hear about a lot of TMA schools. For one thing she asked us to never call her Sifu and rather just call her by her first name because she said we are all students and we are all always learning from each other.
She never had any problems with us learning other MA while learning Taijiquan. She supported cross-training and she was a student herself in several other MA.
Also, she charged very little and used to charge me half price because she knew I was studying at the time and had little money ( and taught anyone who really wanted to learn for free if they were poor ). When I started to learn from her she was in her 70's yet would regularily jump up and down from a school Auditorium stage like a 20 year old. Her arms were really hard and had lots of thin ropey muscles all over.
She never tried to talk much about Chi flow or ever try and bring attention to it, although she seemed to experience intense Chi movements while performing her movements she would always tell us to ignore it and carry on.
She did like to talk about the importance of relaxation. What I really liked ( while feeling frustrated that I could not completely relax ) was that she said that relaxation is not something you just do straight away. It is like the many layers of an onion and it takes time for each layer of tension to fall away.
At the time I started learning from her I was having a lot of problems at home and I was smoking a lot of weed and having, as you can imagine, a very confusing time.
One day, after class she called me aside and just asked me point blank " Do you take drugs ?" . I was freaked out and defensively said " no, of course not " . She smiled and said that she doesn't want to yell or get me in trouble and to answer honestly. I said yes and told her about it a little and she just slapped me on the back and said " don't worry , we'll get you sorted out ". I stopped smoking weed shortly after that and really started taking MA more seriously.
We learned a lot about stand-up grappling and clinch techniques which were all traditional Yang Style techniques. Some really good stuff. I did a seminar with my Sigung that focussed on how there are wrist, elbow and shoulder locks as well as throws in almost all the patterns in the Short Form. We never did a lot of ground-fighting I do admit and what small amount I did was mostly with the Dao ( Broadsword ) techniques. Then again, I never made it past the Intermediate class. Don't know what they learned in the advanced class.
In most Taijiquan videos and demos I have seen they seem to be too "soft". Taijiquan is not supposed to only be practised slowly. There are many important reasons for slow practice, but a student of 6 months or more should practice at various speeds including all out as fast as you can with as much control as possible. Many of the basic Short Form Taijiquan moves are locks, breaks, palm strikes to the nose, palm strikes to the groin, kicks to the knees and groin, grinding your heel down the opponent's shin, stomping the foot and ankle, finger jabs to the eyes, elbow strikes, shoulder strikes, etc. etc. etc. I am not going to try to say they are too lethal to explain or anything like that . If anyone wants examples I will be happy to elaborate. Also, striking nerve bundles ( like either side of your elbow like the funny bone and kicking the shin ) to numb limbs. Assisted palm strikes to the chest, colar bone and heart are also important techniques.
With regards to the swinging arm movements. In Taijiquan, often the way you first learn the movement is a lot bigger/exhagerated to help new students to understand the mechanics quicker and to help teach breathing and flow and body mechanics and timing of the limbs, but you are meant to make the movements as small as possible as you learn, using spiral force from the hips and feet to provide power. I don't mean anything esoteric, just body mechanics that many MA's implement.
Throwing wide hooking punches to the head like in that video is really stupid. Those are the easiest punches to block. If there is one thing boxer's know it's punches and no good boxer will make the mistake of putting too much of a curve into their hook. It's easy to counter and you see it coming. The trick is to get it into that almost vague/blindspot area we all have in our eyes so that you don't notice the punch until it's hit. Taijiquan is the same. Punches are normally kept in tight without giving any openings unless you are trying to lure your opponent to strike you somewhere specific. Also something any Martial Artist can understand.
I am a mixed martial artist. I am learning as much as I can right now about various MA. I still consider myself a beginner in Martial Arts and I think I will always see myself that way. It keeps me humble and always willing to learn from fighters from all walks of life and all skill levels. When I meet another Martial Artist, and they practice a different way to me, I am always eager to spar with them, and if they are better than me I ask them to teach me the technique that beat me and to explain the underlying principle behind it. I then train on how to counter it.
Although I don't actively practice Taijiquan anymore, there are still a few key techniques in my arsenal that come straight from Taijiquan ( including breath control which I often combine with Boxing breathing techniques ). I will also never forget the many important lessons I have learned from a true Taijiquan Master.
Sorry for all the blabbing, but I think if many of today's Taijiquan students would think outside the box a bit more their Taijiquan would improve a lot. You can still train Pure Taijiquan and become a great fighter, but not if you get pulled in by BS like what was shown on that, and most other videos. If you don't learn from the outside world you will be stuck inside your own little world.
Wishing everyone good training !
Last edited by Doughboy; September 28th, 2007 at 03:27 PM.
Reason: spelling
I didn't know the term MMA implied I compete professionaly. I guess I should have said I have a MMA approach to learning different styles. Sorry for any confusion.
Originally
Posted By: Doughboy
I didn't know the term MMA implied I compete professionaly.
”
It doesn’t boet, and Cam does not have a patent on the use of the term so don't be bullied. It means (to the majority of people) around the world just what you thought it meant - mixing martial art styles. However, people (predominantly in the US and Europe) seem to categorise and pigeonhole martial arts more than other people, hence they probably differentiate between cross training and MMA, whereas others in the world, I suspect like you and I, couldn't give a superficial toss what label is attached to how we train, since we are more interested in the training than what we call it… if you call it cross training, or you call it mixed marital arts, more power to you I say!
“
I guess I should have said I have a MMA approach to learning different styles. Sorry for any confusion.
”
No need to apologise mate.
__________________ "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Sir Winston Churchill
No need to get so hot under the collar about it all. I think that if someone says, "I practice/train MMA" there is less of an implication that one is an active or professional fighter than if one says, "I'm a mixed martial artist." I don't think its a matter of bullying so much as the way that these terms are coming to be used in current parlance.
__________________
Wolfgang says:
I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893
Hey, over here there's no implication of being a professional competitor what so ever in the phrase used.
__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me
I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893
