TJQ application. Let's talk about "what works"

The moves he does at 12 and at 18 seconds were also in one of the Yang forms I learned ( can't remember which one. I did 2 short forms and the long Yang form ).

To be the one at 12 seconds is a control point move where, when you are able to lock the opponent's arm with that movement you can more easily move his body from point A to point B ( Dumog in FMA ). When I grab an opponent's arm on both points like that when sparring, I like to either raise their arm and shin kick them in the ribs, or go for a takedown using that as a lock point or as a transition to the actual takedown ( for example a slip under ).

When someone's arm is locked at the elbow and you push their arm up into their shoulder socket you can move someone much bigger than you are. Of course they will catch on and resist then you can pull them down hard, if they resist that you can push them up again. Just that can make a good partner exercise where you flow from controlling the wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck and head in different combinations. I learned it in FMA but it could be applied to Taijiquan Pushing Hands pretty easily.

Acually, I'm not sure if you mean ( at 18 seconds ) the upward locking motion ( which I think you mean ) or the fist smacking the palm ( something I didn't learn in Yang style but have seen often in Chen style ).

I think maybe these sort of movements are sometimes better used as opportunity responses than something you try to set up ( depends on your strategy ).

“	even boxers (sometimes especially boxers) tend to be open to a fast intercept	”

Don't agree with that one. Maybe a bad boxer or someone who just dabbles in boxing. A good boxer does not have this weakness. He will puch explosively and very fast and withdraw his hands even quicker than they went out. Intercepting something like a fast jab from a boxer cannot be done when you are thinking " when he jabs I will rely on my reflexes to catch it at the right moment ". I mean a good jab is insanely fast. A more practical approach is to force him to move the way you want to so that you can begin your interception before he even knows he is going to do that move. One way to do this I learned from Dog Brothers Martial Arts. They call it the Attacking Blocks concept where you use aggressive footwork and hard angular crash attacks to force your opponent to react in various ways. For example you want to catch his jab and do something inherently slower like the movements in the video you posted, you attack his head in a way that forces his jabbing hand to move out to defend the attack. This sets you up well because he didn't realise you weren't using the aggressive footwork to smack his head, but you used it to get yourself halfway through the pattern before his hand even comes out. Hard to explain in text but it's like a pre-emptive setups sort of thing. Marc Denny ( Crafty Dog ) was saying that a lot of classical techniques that he considered unusable have come "alive" since applying the Attacking Blocks principle. In a way you "steal time" from your opponent.

Your thoughts ?

“	opportunity responses than something you try to set up	”

Hey, I don't use anything but opportunity responses.

“	In a way you "steal time" from your opponent	”

This is the holy grail...

“	A good boxer does not have this weakness	”

I know what you mean but I do find boxers (and kick boxers) come to rely on being free to jab and pull back - maybe you train with boxers who fight other arts more often and don't have that subconcious assumption - if you can get the angles right so they are punching into your hands (like catching a baseball in a mitt - the ball can be moving so fast you can't really see it but it doesn't matter if your body and hand are in the right place in advance) you get a moment to apply a jolt. I've never had much luck with retaining control of the arm after the jolt to push into the socket/pull... the theory is there, I know from painful experience it can be done... but the practice would require grabbing and holding and I usually find things are going fast and my timing isn't perfect so it's more of a palm strike with each hand to move the elbow in the "wrong" direction and then it's time for something else (usually get out of the way because they've adapted to the shift in angles - but at least their punches are weaker on one arm...).

“	you use aggressive footwork and hard angular crash attacks to force your opponent to react in various ways.	”

Nice. That's kind of a well thought out and deeply practiced approach to what I've fumbled around with.

“	or the fist smacking the palm	”

No, that one is mostly about body mechanics and development IMO - you can build stuff out of it - eg in the form I posted the rising movement before you drop the hand can be used to train transition to an uppercut but I've not heard serious chen guys suggesting applications that don't look quite different to the form (though they may very well be out there)

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“	Hey, I don't use anything but opportunity responses.	”

Nice to hear it.

“	I know what you mean but I do find boxers (and kick boxers) come to rely on being free to jab and pull back - maybe you train with boxers who fight other arts more often and don't have that subconcious assumption - if you can get the angles right so they are punching into your hands (like catching a baseball in a mitt - the ball can be moving so fast you can't really see it but it doesn't matter if your body and hand are in the right place in advance) you get a moment to apply a jolt.	”

Yea the Boxers I jam with are not just pure Boxers but they do train proper Boxing not just fooling about with it.

To me a Boxer's most powerful weapon is his fists. If I know that I did not spend as much time as the everage boxer working on my punches ( and no art spends more time than a boxer on just punching basics ) than I want to avoid that power if possible. If I see a trained boxer coming at me on the pavement I would go for the nuts with a kick and then throw in all the stuff they are not always used to like headbutts, knees, and elbows ( though I am yet to meet a good Boxer who cannot adapt to this ).

“	Nice. That's kind of a well thought out and deeply practiced approach to what I've fumbled around with.	”

It is amazing how well this simple concept pays off in sparring once it is understood.

“	No, that one is mostly about body mechanics and development IMO - you can build stuff out of it - eg in the form I posted the rising movement before you drop the hand can be used to train transition to an uppercut but I've not heard serious chen guys suggesting applications that don't look quite different to the form (though they may very well be out there)	”

That's one I don't claim to understand properly. If I was forced to try make an application and keep it looking like in the Form, I would say if you manage to under-scoop someone's side kick with your hand/wrist/forearm area then you drive the middle knuckle of the fists hard into the soft parts next to the ankle.

Well. I heavily recommend not falling too much in love with bonkers interpretation of how this move is a neck break, that a sweep, and the likes. Taijiquan in first instance uses Qi Jiguangs 32 positions to generically train the body, developing internal strength. This strength, and the fluidity of it, is the weapon in the first instance. You can shock someone ramming him with it, kick, punch, throw, pull, push, etc.

Developing ones applications is at first a matter of learning push hands to set things up. Leading attacking people by their arms or body into making a long step or putting a hand on their body so they get off-balance, and then you randomly do known martial moves like boringly punch their jaws, hammerfist their temple, finger dart their eyes or throat, go literally through them for judo like throwing, head grabbing and viciously slamming on the ground, etc.
But that is intuitively done from working inside on their forearms, hips, body, head, using footwork out of the moving step exercises (dancelike moves like from Slow Walz reaching behind them to be able to grab the head and pull them around). This is the most important thing to learn, pick peoples attacks, punches deflecting with the forearm, get them to collide with your solid structure, pull them about a bit, move into their shadow (zone where you can hit them hard and they cannot) or stepping right into them, and THEN rock around. Elbows, uppercuts, knee (NOT pulling them down, this isn't K-1, or MT) rams into their knees, shoulder rams, headbutt, iron palm, etc.

BTW, a "kneck break" usually doesn't break the neck, it displaces the neck discs, tearing something in that. Really breaking the bone is not so easy, if you can do it at all, without throwing someone badly on the head, or using something I won't explain.

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Thanks for the post Nik. I liked what you are saying.

“	BTW, a "kneck break" usually doesn't break the neck, it displaces the neck discs, tearing something in that. Really breaking the bone is not so easy, if you can do it at all, without throwing someone badly on the head, or using something I won't explain.	”

Normally, it would be a neck dislocation, rather than a break, which can lead to death or paralysis. There are some BJJ moves that can dislocate the neck from the head if applied full force ( they are mostly done on the ground for leverage ).

“	You can shock someone ramming him with it, kick, punch, throw, pull, push, etc.	”

Perhaps this thread can also be about application of Taijiquan Concepts like Kao, Li, Peng, etc. I can't remember all the names myself so if someone could up a list we could discuss each one.

Just remembered I have Wong Kiew Kit's Taijiquan book on the shelf.

They are:

8 Fundamental Hand Movements

peng - warding off
lu - rolling back
qi - pressing
an - pushing
lie - spreading
cai - taking
zhou - elbowing
kao - leaning

5 Fundamental Leg Movements

jin - moving forward
tui - moving backward
ku - moving left
pan - moving right
ding - remaining at the centre

Maybe if students were to spend more time studying and practising these concepts with live Pushing Hands and Striking Hands, and just a little bit of time devoted to Forms. The standard of fighters could improve somewhat.

I don't know. That was my attitude when I started tai chi (about 9 years ago) I trained hard with that approach but quickly realised I wasn't making progress.

After a couple of years I settled down to hours of daily practice of the basics - loosening exercises, standing, sword drills, forms, push hands basics, basic bag work. It didn't take long to realise there were some fundemental issues with my body mechanics holding me back. Fixing that - not so easy. In some ways there's no real point progressing to most of the practice being live push hands and striking hands until those issues are resolved. Forms and drills are the way to resolve them. Even if it were likely to happen I wouldn't get much benefit from learning to fight well compared to the benefit I will from consistently moving well.

From what I see in class, at seminars, in the park, on youtube, on forums, and teaching a lot of other people should also stop worrying about how tai chi "is a martial art" and start worrying about how it's seriously hard training.

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High mountains are a feeling
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I hear you. I have addressed this a lot on the net and IRL that it comes down to the aims and goals of the individual. If Taijiquan should not focus on combat efficiency, then why do so many of it's practitioners debate to the death the complete opposite even when their own fighting skills are untested. Should a Taijiquan teacher even tell you that Taijiquan is for self defense, if they are not going to effectively teach you to use it ?

It seems mostly only the new age Tai Chi schools are rejecting the combat side of Taijiquan and some even the Qi aspects. While the traditionals maintain that it is an extremely effective fighting style. There is a paradox here. I choose to keep a positive approach to looking at this problem. Obviously, there are some issues translating the old Classical Styles of Taijiquan into the context of the modern world otherwise I wouldn't have left the style to look for something more efficient. My taijiquan teacher herself cross-trains in other arts that are more about external fighting, so she supported my move.

I look back on the training fondly and this thread is a means for me to address problems and possible solutions. If someone is happy to train Taijiquan and just touch on the combat aspects ( which is what 99.99999999999% of the schools do ) I am not saying they shouldn't practice and enjoy their art. But, if they get any kind of impression that those skills will save their life, even though they have only practiced years of forms and some gentle pushing hands, they will get schooled.

Though I must say, Taijiquan ( at my school as well ) seems to attract some very nice, mellow, supportive people. It brings people down from that hyped-up city energy down to a more tranquil state of being. That certainly gives it a lot of merit in my books, but it is either a fighting art that functions, or eastern energy exercise parading as a fighting art. I'd like to believe it can be the former, but I don't think it is there yet.

“	how it's seriously hard training.	”

It was certainly tough

One problem with looking at the affect or usefulness of styles is people are always talking about something as a whole. In reality each aspect is only a moment and the affect of each moment is all that matters.

A strike that takes someone out, a throw that takes them down, each being an ending move has little to do with it's origins it stands on it's own in each individual in that moment.

I don't remember which style or system I was doing in any of the fights I have been in. I do remember which style was the source of understanding and demonstrated a principal when I trained.

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What you describe above is closer to how I am training, now that I have gone away from the TMA approach.

But, how does one do this and stay true to the roots of his art at the same time ( in this example of Taijiquan ). If a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick ( which I really believe to be true ) what is in Taijiquan that differenciates it in the realm of Combat from other arts. Is it possible to use this/these differences for efficiency or are they hinderances towards realistic self defense. Can a balance be found ?

“	I don't remember which style or system I was doing in any of the fights I have been in. I do remember which style was the source of understanding and demonstrated a principal when I trained.	”

Has Taijiquan ever given you such a source of understanding personally ?

Any system is built on fundamental concepts, not the basic punch like but the foundation of approaches to movement, energy, body dynamics, application, manipulation connections such as elements and their nature, and so on.
Each has a way to explain and example. I look for the essence rather than the defined.

I use some of the same things TJQ artist use but would point out that a lot of what is in TJQ is also in other arts no one owns concepts or applications just the names they give them.

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“	I look for the essence rather than the defined.	”

But doesn't this approach exlude the need to actually practice TJQ as a whole ?

Not at all, when do or can you do that?

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