TJQ application. Let's talk about "what works"

Well, on the happier and healthier thing, try to do some SHORT good Taiji form, or the Senkong one in our DL gallery (it's on youtube too), and do it very slow every day for 20 minutes, to half an hour. Then do some empty meditation aka sitting in the garden watching the sky, the ground, and the horizon for some odd hour. Whatever other MA you do, that will get you towards the healthier and happier.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	If you have to options to learn a all around fighting art of choice, then I would (and did) learn a combat style of ju jitsu and then Arnis.	”

I've kind of gone the other way around. Started with FMA and now learning about BJJ and Greco Roman ( and some other stuff ). For weapons training FMA and DBMA is my main focus. For hand to hand my main core is MT, Greco Roman, FMA, and NHB style Boxing for striking.

It's great to hear from people with first hand experience. Though is sucks also that you were forced to defend yourself.

“	I have had the need many times over to rely on effective skills and have been very lucky they worked when they were needed most.	”

Glad you made it.

“	One thing I believe is the arts that have lasted did so only because they produced results.	”

Then I say TJQ practitioners should be more open about the Combat Application, and rather promote some of the other fantastic qualities and attributes and life lessons TJQ can give you. My Taijiquan teacher didn't like Combat very much and she openly said this. Her Sifu ( My Sigung ) was the opposite. He believes in teaching it as a fighting art and I must say he is certainly and intense fellow. He takes full power kicks to the body from anyone who wants to try at his seminars. He is extremely knowledgable on locking the wrist and arms as well as countering this. He taught me how to use Fa Jing ( whether you believe it to be Chi or Body Mechanics or both ) to generate proper spiral whip-like energy when using Taijiquan in a real fight. But he said he allows his students to all take their own path and he supported my Sifu's way of teaching. Fortunately my Sifu understood my enthusiasm for combat application and she did a lot of after hours work with me. Helping me to understand what every movement in my forms can be for. Her focus was on character development, meditation, and internal strength. It was a great experience and I think she had the right attitude about her art and still the most healthy 70 year old woman I have ever met.

Very nice Nik.

“	Then I say TJQ practitioners should be more open about the Combat Application, and rather promote some of the other fantastic qualities and attributes and life lessons TJQ can give you	”

Some of them are but very few people both know them and know they can apply them. Even fewer can stick to the tai chi principles to any extent when putting them into practice.

I did some training with an old guy who was confident of both. What struck me was the attention to and time spent on basics. The vast majority of his training had been basic drills, forms, and basic push/spinning hands. Sure, the free form push hands and striking practice is essential but I've trained with too many schools who think they're going to learn to fight by doing a bit of random push hands, a bit of random sparring, and sneering at forms practice. Another thing was he made no secret of his view that it took a long time to develop the body so it could apply tai chi effectively. His view was to spend a long time training "yin" then add "yang" in in a very short time to create a fighter quickly once the basics were in place.

Also, there's the issue nik has mentioned where a lot of the training is not so much application based in the "he does that you do this" sense as principle based in the "if he withdraws keep attacking" sense.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

@doughboy: Sounds like your Sigung would have been the right person to discuss and train with. Is he still alive ?

On another note, for personal growth you need to look at the bigger picture. For example, when the reason for not feeling well is the location and its dangers, and crime, then Taiji doesn't make you happy. Moving does. When you want to get short-term protection, anjing applications aren't what you need now, it's gross sport type ones for the moment (BJJ, smacking around) until the Taiji sets in from within, and plain preparation (avoid, and "carry a big stick" = gun). Taiji is perhaps the epitome of fighting relevant skill sets, but it's as hard and longwinded to aquire that I give most people the advice of using a backup for the moment that is simpler to learn. I have (had) good "Taiji skills", but they were byproduct of chance. My body does them at times because I was exposed to people with an incredible skill level and my body copied it, playing around with that in sports, but that is something hard to explain where and "how" I got this, since it's a multitude, and more of intuition. Having a teacher, like your Sigung, who can expose you to the approaches, moves, etc. is important. Otherwise you have something like a BJJ teaching that consists of superfluous pamphlets like "don't use strength, use flow" etc. without ever mentioning a concrete move. Without a move, BJJ is three letter with no meaning. Improvising comes from a good base.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

“	Also, there's the issue nik has mentioned where a lot of the training is not so much application based in the "he does that you do this" sense as principle based in the "if he withdraws keep attacking" sense.	”

I think MA that train the "he does that you do this" way instead of what Nik was talking about will produce the weaker fighters, of course.

“	Sounds like your Sigung would have been the right person to discuss and train with. Is he still alive ?	”

He is but teaches far from my area. I have attended quite a few of his combat seminars though.

“	avoid, and "carry a big stick" = gun	”

not a big gun fan, but I always have my blade handy. And I always avoid.

“	what you need now, it's gross sport type ones for the moment (BJJ, smacking around) until the Taiji sets in from within	”

I agree with the first part, but I highly doubt TJQ is going to "set in" for me. I was no Master, but was told by Sigung and Sifu that I had a good understanding of the energy of Taijiquan and was often asked to teach the beginners the Short Form to catch them up with the rest of the class. I left still feeling like a beginner, but I think that's just the way I am. I don't feel like my opinion on learning TJQ will change again. I'm a cross-trainer 100% so I might see something I like that I never saw before in TJQ that I will use, but I'm sick and tired and done with all the deep cultural stuff. No offense, I used to love all that stuff, but now it just distracts me from my goal.

The deep cultural stuff is universal. That's due to the nature of daoism, it takes what is within, and comes when letting the depth inside express itself. So that sort of bodily meditation doesn't force someone to be like something, it expresses what is already inside. Which for some time will be lots of different feelings.

Regarding Taiji as martial art, there are lots of different habits, some people are more grappling oriented, some more striking, some are brighter (more power oriented), some are softer. There is no "Taiji is like that", it's a couple of toolboxes. You have to understand that the core families learned that from youth on with a long way of evolving, it was their television. So everyone had lots of time to develop their approach. Since most people aren't in pitfights every day, a good idea is to do it playfully, and develop on the way. However, it helps if someone shows the toolbox at first, so you know the spices and vegetables you can throw in the soup.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

To fight with Taiji, you have to be taught what the essence of what taiji is. Not the already mentioned in an earlier post, "if they do this, you do this" mentality. The 13 postures is everything that Taiji is. taiji isn't about a certain amount of moves... it's about unlimited possibility through 8 physical movements and five movable directions. Ex.) ward off... I remember in my earlier years someone trying to show me an application to it. THERES NO SUCH THING!!!

Ward off is a state of being. Ward off is about balance, bouyancy and remaining in the natural state. It's your default setting as a taiji fighter. Ex.) If someone pushes you, or grabs your arm and swings you and lets you go to make you fall... but you don't fall and you regain your balance and stay on your feet. That's ward off. When someone uses any of the other seven techniques and you maintain stability, you are executing ward off.

One of the most misunderstood principles is split-lie. To understand lie, you have to think of the word split. what does it mean? To divide. Using split is to divide your opponents energy like lightning splitting a tree or an axe separating a log. It's penetrating. Each of the 8 has a counterbalance. ward off - roll back. press - push, pull - split, elbow - shoulder. The elbow shoulder one gets tricky. Your posture when matched up with your opponent looks like a "T", so it can cause you to take two steps to execute it properly, or at a higher level... blade your body properly with impeccable timing. Those are the relationships when placed on a bagua anyway. If you're going to practice taiji and want to learn it truly... go deep. learn and take the time to question everything about it. As soon as you understand your own questions... the art unlocks itself to you. To understand taiji... you must understand you. Seems vague and cryptic, but really... not my intent. And that beginning thing when you raise your arms and lower them... simply this: Raising your qi and sinking it to your dan tian. It's a preparation. (you can make any movement an application if your a fighter... no doubt) Learning xiao zhou tian (the more-contemporary term of... micro-cosmic orbit) will help immensely and is an elementary, yet, necessary practice to taiji. For us in Wudang anyway. I def look forward to talking more.. I enjoyed reading the previous posts. One of the few that makes me respond. Although, i'm starting to get into this forum thing.

Cheers...