Using Ji against the Shoot

“	Or as Jubei mentioned you could also go to ground before he puts you there a la Gracie technique	”

Yeh i like this too - the shooter expects some resistance but you just drop. I think methods like this are in Eight Drunken immortals too.

This is quite common in NHB matches now - everyone is so skilled in ground work that they just gladdly go to ground.

“	as long as the shoot does not actually work. You have to know how to stop the next natural attempt by the shooter or go directly offensive.	”

I think it is also worth noting that in many NHB matches now - the shoot is very much expected - it is no longer the suprise attack it was in the early UFC's. Often the defender (if they are more of a stand up fighter) just speads and roots with the shooter using every ounce of strength to uproot & throw his opponent.

In this position the ability to strike to the spine would end the encounter much quicker than the regulated responce.

The shoot when done right is a high success move. BUT it most definatley is not infalable, even if done correctly. As with nearly every throw, technique or movement there are always areas to exploit.

cheers
chris

__________________
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

- Led Zeppelin

Paul,

I have to agree w/ PaiLumUmar. As I read the thread I was thinking about saying the same things he did. Only he typed it 1st. (I'm usually not on this board)

But, Interesting that you use the word "Timing". As a grappler and a Kung Fu man I tend to lean towards very close in fighting myself.

I would say that the "State of Tai Chi" doesn't even exist untill you are touching. If I have a stick point, then i'm using listening skill and so forth, so for me, Timing is an external atribute.

I know what you're thinking..."but nobody starts out touching"

to that I answer,
"That is why, all I practice is Achieving a stick point and using my kung fu from a very close in almost stand up grappling nature" and all those variables in between...think about it deeply.

I think you touched upon a key element for vs. the wrestler, but you didn't come full out and say it. And that is Hand Control, if you have that, and also awareness and control of your own hips(over and better than his). Then you have the control.

Perhaps you meant to say that.

Last thing, stoping the initial shot is not the only concern. What the wrestler does after hes has a hold of any part of you is the key (depending on his skill of course).

BTW, your rip back move is in fact also in wrestling...it's basically "Kick your HIP BACK and cross face" ( I can still hear my old coach) . The cross face can be replaced w/ something else but you get my meaning of course.

You may stop the double leg that way, but if he retains control of just one leg, he then flows to a single and all the nice moves that follow that. for example,

1. Navy = cross the free arm underneath and trip
2. Get his hips and legs up to your standing leg ankle and stand up
2.a Reach through w/ the free hand and then raise you up w/ the High Crouch. Then slam you on your neck and face

man....too many.

and yeah, they are done fast and frankly, most of them don't give a crap if you're hitting them. I know if I go into a wrestler mode, the dude better drop me with ONE shot, that is all he'll get before I Back Arch ..ala suplex his face into the pavement. I've done it in real fights couple times. Not a good sound when he's knocked out.

Not disagreeing w/ you, just playing devils advocate. after all im a kung fu guy too.

My answer is also, "Know some wrestling to understand and counter it" and also, master the tell tale signs of "Body English", then you can be more prepared.

"O"

WWW.KWOON.COM

http://www.kungfucinema.com/reviews/kwoon.htm

Hey O,


Glad to see you posting here on The Dragon's List.


I hope you decide to post alot more here.I know you are busy with Kwoon and other stuff ,but we can use someone with your knowledge of both kung fu and NHB fighting in the ring here.





jeff

__________________
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally posted by Paul Calugaru The main objective of wrestlers is to get their opponents off their feet in which they gain an advantage. we are all well aware of this I know) The usual way a wrestlers achieves this is the good old shoot. In its truest form it's a full out diving tackle towards your legs, usually with the head and shoulder off center to avoid any knees. However, in order to launch a shoot, wrestlers must lower their center before they dive in. By keeping your center on the level of his you match his mobility and minimize the area open for the shoot. If the wrestler is doing a full shoot he will fall flat in front of you. If he's doing a modified shoot with one leg still underneath him, you can use a rollback maneuver with your hips still pushing into his neck diagonally downwards and to the side. You can use the point of the elbow to dig into the numerous pressure points in the area and drive him to the mat. If he has your leg, straighten it as well as your back as in a traditional sprawl. He will find that the tighter he tries to hold on to your leg the double the force on the neck.	”

I realize that I am revisiting a pretty old thread, but as I'm new here I just couldn't resist such an interesting topic!

First, I know this is really splitting hairs, but the word 'shoot' is not used as a noun in wrestling parlance. I know this is not a very important point, but for some reason it just drives me crazy. Maybe in bjj circles the word 'shot' is not used, but in all my years of wrestling I've never encountered this use of 'shoot' outside of forums such as this. Forgive my small indulgence in airing this pet peeve (and excuse me if use has changed recently---I don't understand new music either!)

On to more important things. Again, this may be a matter of semantics, but a proper shot should not be a 'dive' by any stretch of the imagination. If your shoulders have moved out significantly ahead of your hips, you are doing something very wrong. The head is moved to more effectively accomplish the takedown. Next, a skilled wrestler will not lower his level as a separate movement before taking his penetration step. He will lower his level as he shoots in a very very quick movement. Maybe its my prejudice, but I see alot of 'takedown defenses' as being on the order of 'catching' a boxer's jab. Possible, but... Next, no matter what the defense, if a wrestler ends up falling flat in front of you well, he's not very skilled to say the least. Finally, I hope that folks do not get a false impression of what really takes place when a good shot is coming. Complex movements, or those that include lateral movement or moving one's hips toward the offensive party are not likely to be successful.

This is not to say 'you can't stop the mighty wrestler' or that sort of thing, but a realistic defense takes place well before the actual shot (unless the guy is really weak or slow, in which case---have fun!).

BTW, I should add that folks should be careful about 'lowering' and such as a defense against a shot. Don't forget that there are many, many other attacks that can come when you are expecting a shot. If you let on that you are really looking out for a double or such, don't be surprised to be on the receiving end of a head-snap, drag, or ankle pick (or whatever else).

“	Originally posted by Unkotare BTW, I should add that folks should be careful about 'lowering' and such as a defense against a shot. Don't forget that there are many, many other attacks that can come when you are expecting a shot. If you let on that you are really looking out for a double or such, don't be surprised to be on the receiving end of a head-snap, drag, or ankle pick (or whatever else).	”

That is very true.


I think the problem in discussing this stuff on a forum is this. Most ppl reply in an i've used "this" against "that" type of manner. Then others reading that see only that answer and think that's the only response that they have to that technique. I know i myself answer post in that fasion.

The reason being many times i don't have the time or patience to list all the different attacks and couters to those attacks and then counter counter attacks to those. so ppl get a limited picture and make their own assumptions as to someones skill.




jeff

__________________
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally posted by Jeff C. many times i don't have the time or patience to list all the different attacks and couters to those attacks and then counter counter attacks to those.	”

It could go on forever!

“	First, I know this is really splitting hairs, but the word 'shoot' is not used as a noun in wrestling parlance. I know this is not a very important point, but for some reason it just drives me crazy. Maybe in bjj circles the word 'shot' is not used, but in all my years of wrestling I've never encountered this use of 'shoot' outside of forums such as this. Forgive my small indulgence in airing this pet peeve (and excuse me if use has changed recently---I don't understand new music either!)	”

Come on now, don't lecture us on our bad etiquette if you aren't going to tell us the proper terminology.

“	Next, no matter what the defense, if a wrestler ends up falling flat in front of you well, he's not very skilled to say the least	”

That's always relative, so maybe the other guy is just better.

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally posted by StormMountain Come on now, don't lecture us on our bad etiquette if you aren't going to tell us the proper terminology. That's always relative, so maybe the other guy is just better.	”

I'm sorry, I thought I had made that clear. 'shoot' is a verb, as in "Shoot as often as you can and eventually you'll get the takedown", and 'shot' is a noun, as in "That was a nice shot".


As for the other guy being better, that would be irrelevant. If the person is taking a proper shot, he won't end up splayed out face down even if he fails to get the takedown or his opponent counters him effectively and tools him roundly. Just because the New England Patriots are great, that doesn't mean the other team starts running backwards (ok, under certain circumstances it could, but you see what I mean).

Don't take this as argumentative, sir. Just trying to clarify my point to your satisfaction.

“	If the person is taking a proper shot,	”

OK, but that still seems relative.

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

Paul wirtes: "If done correctly the vertical forearm slams/strikes downward and forward into the area between the neck and shoulder stopping the forward momentum of the shoot. If done full bore serious injury to the shooter could result… like broken collar bones at the very least, be careful!!!) There many applications you can now proceeded to do. If the wrestler is doing a full shoot he will fall flat in front of you. If he's doing a modified shoot with one leg still underneath him, you can use a rollback maneuver with your hips still pushing into his neck diagonally downwards and to the side. You can use the point of the elbow to dig into the numerous pressure points in the area and drive him to the mat. If he has your leg, straighten it as well as your back as in a traditional sprawl. He will find that the tighter he tries to hold on to your leg the double the force on the neck. "

This seems to be to be in direct conflict with tai chi classics. The above quote says that one should meet force with force. This is double wieghting. What if during that collision the other person's mass is too great when combined with his speed This will only work if his attack is less than a full commitment and or you are much stronger.

The other member's commments on timing etc. I agree with.

The classical tai chi solution to the shoot is to use silk reeling to uproot, twist and strike the attacker. This relies on structure, dan tien rotation and sensitivity...not meeting the force head on.

__________________
It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

“	This seems to be to be in direct conflict with tai chi classics. The above quote says that one should meet force with force.	”

I don't completely agree. IF the shooter, is bent way forward, especially, then his own alignment is off and he's the one using force and you meet his centered forced with a rooted, centered structure and are able to repel it, then that's not force against force to me ( you can just plow right through somebody if they have no structure, no point in yielding ) HOWEVER, when the forearm is jammed in, I am assuming that the individual is dropping their body weight and issuing force in a donward direction, which IS channeling the force in the direction it wants to go. THough, of course, I have always seen that as more of a "pulldown" technique.

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally posted by StormMountain I don't completely agree. IF the shooter, is bent way forward, especially, then his own alignment is off .	”

I think I may be misunderstanding your meaning here. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "bent way forward" I don't want to comment without fully comprehending your meaning (although I'm enjoying the discussion!).

Thank you.

Hey Unk!

What I mean is that the spine is no longer in a 100% vertical position, which is a structural thing that internalist talk about alot, I am assuming you are about to start lecturing me on how shooting for the leg doesn't require one to bend way forward, etc, and you are right. I was exaggerating a tad to get my point across.

The point is:

1. I don't consider it force against force if you alignment is superior to your opponents, ie, if you push against an oak tree and it doesn't fall over, it isn't because the Oak tree is using force against you, it's just being rooted.

2. When somebody begins extending their energy downward, and ESPECIALLY if they overextend themselves trying to get your legs, then the "correct" Taiji thing to do is send that force in a direction it wants to go, hence, pull down, and rub their face in the mat. Though, as the author of the thread stated, this can be combined with "pressing" energy to stymey your opponent.......................

.................and I know, a GOOD wrestler isn't going to over extend himself, but I would again argue that is precisely relative to the skill of who he is wrestling, if you have two guys wrestle "perfectly" nobody's going to win, somebody has got to screw up, even if they are both really "good". Otherwise, it comes off as is if one is saying that if a wrestler does everything exactly right, this defense won't work.....well yeh, but that's the same argument you make for any technique in any style..................

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"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally posted by StormMountain Hey Unk! What I mean is that the spine is no longer in a 100% vertical position, which is a structural thing that internalist talk about alot, I am assuming you are about to start lecturing me on how shooting for the leg doesn't require one to bend way forward, etc, and you are right. I was exaggerating a tad to get my point across. The point is: ..............	”

I'm sorry if you have taken my previous comments as 'lecturing'. They were not intended as such. Since it seems that my views are causing you offense, I'll refrain from further comment on this thread unless I receive some indication that you are interested in hearing my views on this matter. I would like to comment on the rest of your interesting post, but I don't want to create any hard feelings.