Using Ji against the Shoot

“	I'm sorry if you have taken my previous comments as 'lecturing'. They were not intended as such. Since it seems that my views are causing you offense, I'll refrain from further comment on this thread unless I receive some indication that you are interested in hearing my views on this matter. I would like to comment on the rest of your interesting post, but I don't want to create any hard feelings.	”

Man, speaking of hard feelings...............Lecture is just a word, dude.

Is it just me are folks just all sensitive up in here

“	I'll refrain from further comment on this thread unless I receive some indication that you are interested in hearing my views on this matter	”

The only thing causing me offense is that kind of crazy assuming. Why don't you just tell us what you think

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

Hey Storm,

This is specifically what I was referring to about being contrary to the classics :
Paul writes: "If done correctly the vertical forearm slams/strikes downward and forward into the area between the neck and shoulder stopping the forward momentum of the shoot.

I interpret stopping the forward momentum as double weighting....countering his force with your superior force to deflect him.

Storm writes:
"I don't completely agree. IF the shooter, is bent way forward, especially, then his own alignment is off and he's the one using force and you meet his centered forced with a rooted, centered structure and are able to repel it, then that's not force against force to me ( you can just plow right through somebody if they have no structure, no point in yielding ) "

Without a doubt, what you say will topple him under those assumptions. My philosophy is that yielding (silk reeling) should be done all the time and is not something that is turned on or off based on your opponent. Because, really...how do we know at the beginning of an encounter how thing will go and what level the person really is Yielding/silk reeling is a key part of tai chi and should always be done.

__________________
It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

To me, silk reeling is about the joints, and the unified timing of contraction and expansion more so than yielding.

“	I interpret stopping the forward momentum as double weighting....countering his force with your superior force to deflect him.	”

I think relating that to the classics is also to a great deal, a matter or interpretation, and how you define things such as
"double weighting" and "brute force", etc. As we discussed double weighting earliler, I don't feel I am contradicting my earlier definition or the classics.

One thing in Taiji, you are trying to achieve absolute perfection, so therefore, it is very hard to NOT find fault in anybody's ideas of application. You are absolutely right that neutralization/yielding is very important in Tai Chi.

But again I don't see the contradiction. Paul clearly states that:

“	If done correctly the vertical forearm slams/strikes downward and forward into the area between the neck and shoulder stopping the forward momentum of the shoot	”

From my understanding, when he says "downward" he is adding to the direction the "shooter" is moving in, which is definately what the classics say to do. That being the case, Taiji still has plenty of usage of striking power (which is why I don't want to make super strict definition of force against force, because to me, that means you wouldn't punch anybody as it's force against force), NOW, I mention that in the CONTEXT of using this "press" part of the application as a strike. A good fajing strike will often use the opponent's rootedness (or in this case you could interpret it as force) against him by using his own forward momentum to ram himself into the technique. In other words, the guy doing press/pull down noticed that his opponent was using "brute force" so he used pull down to redirect his energy and used the shooter's "double weightedness" as a way to deliver a strike that he could not "move away" (absorb/yield) from. (There is also a good bit of peng, keeping the bubble, kind of thing going on there)

To me that makes perfect Tai Chi sense.

Please explain what you think is the apropriate response of the Tai Chi guy against the "shooter". I'm very interested to see how you would employ the classics!

And Unk, I hope to hear your thoughts!

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally Posted By: StormMountain Hey Unk! and I know, a GOOD wrestler isn't going to over extend himself, but I would again argue that is precisely relative to the skill of who he is wrestling, if you have two guys wrestle "perfectly" nobody's going to win, somebody has got to screw up, even if they are both really "good". Otherwise, it comes off as is if one is saying that if a wrestler does everything exactly right, this defense won't work.....well yeh, but that's the same argument you make for any technique in any style..................	”

Well, I'm glad to read that you are interested in reading my comments! I hope I don't seem too sensitive, I just don't want to create any unnecessary negativity. Particularly in light of the fact that sometimes a meaningful exchange of ideas does involve disagreement or difference of opinion.

That having been said I'll continue.

From my point of view, your comments quoted above seem to indicate that you view wrestling as a purely technical endeavor, when in fact it is at least as much a plainly physical one. If two guys wrestle 'perfectly', one of them most likely will win; The stronger, faster, more determined one. Ancedotal evidence is not entirely legitimate, but let me say that something approaching half of all my wrestling victories were over opponents who were more technically proficient than I. I mention all this only to illustrate that one need not 'screw up' to be countered, and that assuming that an effective defense implies a flawed offense does not take into account that one may simply be the better man. This is why the idea that a defense against a leg shot will result in an opponent splayed out face down is unrealistic unless that opponent is really quite bad at wrestling.

I hope that these comments serve to clarify my previous ones of a similar nature, and that they are seen not as 'lecturing' but as simply the views of someone with a lengthy experience in wrestling. I will seek the benefit of learning from the others here who have comparable experience in other areas.

Unkotare,


Your post are great and informative.

No need to worry about your forum etiquette you have been very respectful in all of your post.

Glad to have you aboard The Dragon's List!!!



jeff

__________________
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

“	Originally Posted By: Jeff C. Unkotare, Your post are great and informative. No need to worry about your forum etiquette you have been very respectful in all of your post. Glad to have you aboard The Dragon's List!!! jeff	”

Thank you sir!

Papa always said "Respect is like venereal disease. The more you give, the more you get."

“	I hope that these comments serve to clarify my previous ones of a similar nature, and that they are seen not as 'lecturing' but as simply the views of someone with a lengthy experience in wrestling. I will seek the benefit of learning from the others here who have comparable experience in other areas.	”

Unkatore, I have not doubt as to your experience and expertise in wrestling. And as such, I have no problem with you lecturing me on the topic. I'm a school teacher by trade so maybe I don't see "lecturing" as such a bad thing. I know I've given and taken plenty of lectures around here.

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally Posted By: StormMountain Unkatore, I have not doubt as to your experience and expertise in wrestling. And as such, I have no problem with you lecturing me on the topic. I'm a school teacher by trade so maybe I don't see "lecturing" as such a bad thing. I know I've given and taken plenty of lectures around here.	”

I'll look forward to your next class!

“	Originally Posted By: StormMountain To me, silk reeling is about the joints, and the unified timing of contraction and expansion more so than yielding. I think relating that to the classics is also to a great deal, a matter or interpretation, and how you define things such as "double weighting" and "brute force", etc. As we discussed double weighting earliler, I don't feel I am contradicting my earlier definition or the classics. One thing in Taiji, you are trying to achieve absolute perfection, so therefore, it is very hard to NOT find fault in anybody's ideas of application. You are absolutely right that neutralization/yielding is very important in Tai Chi. But again I don't see the contradiction. Paul clearly states that: From my understanding, when he says "downward" he is adding to the direction the "shooter" is moving in, which is definately what the classics say to do. That being the case, Taiji still has plenty of usage of striking power (which is why I don't want to make super strict definition of force against force, because to me, that means you wouldn't punch anybody as it's force against force), NOW, I mention that in the CONTEXT of using this "press" part of the application as a strike. A good fajing strike will often use the opponent's rootedness (or in this case you could interpret it as force) against him by using his own forward momentum to ram himself into the technique. In other words, the guy doing press/pull down noticed that his opponent was using "brute force" so he used pull down to redirect his energy and used the shooter's "double weightedness" as a way to deliver a strike that he could not "move away" (absorb/yield) from. (There is also a good bit of peng, keeping the bubble, kind of thing going on there) To me that makes perfect Tai Chi sense. Please explain what you think is the apropriate response of the Tai Chi guy against the "shooter". I'm very interested to see how you would employ the classics! And Unk, I hope to hear your thoughts!	”

WOW...we have about a dozen good threads in this one .

In a nut shell, For tai chi against the shoot lets assume a few things. No matter what we do...distance control, speed, timing are critical. So. lets assume that the tai chi player was able to deal with those elements.

Now here is my understanding of the classics as they apply here. First the tai chi player must protect himself and maintain his structure/alignement while upsetting that of the attacker. To that end, at the point of physical contact he must not fight the incoming force, rather touch the person and take his force to the ground and follow the engery (not esoteric..I mean his physical force). and twist it in the direction it wants to go...ie..let him go further. This is silkreeling as it has been taught to me. While the joints are important, it is not my understanding that it has anything to really do with expanding or contracting. It has to do with keeping the incoming force out of your body and into the ground. It accomplishes this by avoiding double weighting. Then as the opponent comes in he would be twisted and off balance at which time he could be struck.

I have a different understanding of what happends when a tai chi person punches. This to me is not double weighting. This is because at the point of contact, the tai chi player feels the center of the opponent and silkreels to make the strike much more effective that a simple punch as is done in most arts.

__________________
It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

I'd like you to expand on your definition of silk reeling energy.

I looked over my meager library to make sure I wasn't confusing Chan Si Jin with something else. In Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record" He seems to be clearly stating that Chan Si Jin is a way of developing the issuing of power in your own body, a way of moving the body in a circular and spiraling fashion to create coordinated power. So, although building sensitivity and guiding your opponent's energy is definately a part of the Taijiquan experience, Chan Si Jin, to me, seems more about what you are doing with your own body and less of a way it relates to your opponent, of couse I totally agree with your comment on the punching strength coming from this, it just seems to me you are relating silk reeling to yielding, but I feel it's more a matter of unified movement than can be yield or not so yielding (as, BTW, Chan Si Jin is not just a Taiji concept)

It seems to me your suggested response to the attacker is exactly what I suggested in my first post, and to a great extent, what Paul is suggesting. The thing is, what if you screw up and let the guy get too close to you before you begin reacting Obviously, if you are high level you can pull that off without a hitch, but if you can't it's okay to interject a little "press" energy in their to give you some room to manuever.

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally Posted By: StormMountain I'd like you to expand on your definition of silk reeling energy. I looked over my meager library to make sure I wasn't confusing Chan Si Jin with something else. In Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record" He seems to be clearly stating that Chan Si Jin is a way of developing the issuing of power in your own body, a way of moving the body in a circular and spiraling fashion to create coordinated power. So, although building sensitivity and guiding your opponent's energy is definately a part of the Taijiquan experience, Chan Si Jin, to me, seems more about what you are doing with your own body and less of a way it relates to your opponent, of couse I totally agree with your comment on the punching strength coming from this, it just seems to me you are relating silk reeling to yielding, but I feel it's more a matter of unified movement than can be yield or not so yielding (as, BTW, Chan Si Jin is not just a Taiji concept) It seems to me your suggested response to the attacker is exactly what I suggested in my first post, and to a great extent, what Paul is suggesting. The thing is, what if you screw up and let the guy get too close to you before you begin reacting Obviously, if you are high level you can pull that off without a hitch, but if you can't it's okay to interject a little "press" energy in their to give you some room to manuever.	”

Silk reeling is a very complex topic that warrants many threads, but I will do my best to clarify it as I have been taught. First, we must deal with symantics. Silkreeling in one system may differ from that of another. So, I would like to clarify that I am expressing silkreeling as it applies to Chen tai chi as practiced by the Chen family.

Now, with those parameters, silk reeling is that which allows us not to double weight ( force vs force). This is done by having the point of physical contact between the opponent and you be redirected (yielding in the view of many) by superior structure and alignment. The net result is that the the tai chi body acts as a conduit and takes the force in the ground so that it does not affect the balance of the tai chi player. At this moment, the attacker's balance is not dependant on the tai chi player. The silk reeling then ( just like a ball) allows him to go further in the direction of his initial attack. Once he has suffered a serious loss of balance, he can be struck/locked/thrown in a different direction at the discretion of the tai chi player. At that point, it does not really matter as the attacker has fallen into a hole.

Silk reeling has nothing to do with developing power within your own body if you mean it's primary function is hitting. It is what allows a tai chi player to keep his wuji alignment. Now, that in and of itself is a requirement of issuing power, but not the focus. The real meaning as it applied to fighing is to avoid double weighting and set up the strike.

Now, silkreeling while doing the form is preparing the internal body for that moment in the fight. It also helps to promote chi circulation.

Storm, you mention if you screw up.....I completely agree. You will eat it
THat is why there are so few tai chi players who can actually fight. But the do exist, I know at least 5 whose main art is Chen tai chi. When I was in China I spoke with Master Di Guo Yong about this concept of fighting. He said you practice hsingi 3 years and you can mow down people like grass. If you practice tai chi, you had better now go outside for 10 years. This makes sense. As anyone begins the study of any internal art, there is a long period where the art is done in an external fashion...truth be known, most people never get internal. But, the hsingi form is so simple, on the surface, and obviously combative, that you can still fight. The tai chi form is not. If you are not a high level player, you have almost no chance of winning.

__________________
It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

True, but high level against other high levels causes interesting situations......I am not personally of the opinion that one need wait 10 years to be able to do Tai Chi effectively for fighting. Of course, one is always trying to get better, but that's no reason not to be able to apply your skill as it is, right now.

“	The net result is that the the tai chi body acts as a conduit and takes the force in the ground so that it does not affect the balance of the tai chi player. At this moment, the attacker's balance is not dependant on the tai chi player. The silk reeling then ( just like a ball) allows him to go further in the direction of his initial attack. Once he has suffered a serious loss of balance, he can be struck/locked/thrown in a different direction at the discretion of the tai chi player. At that point, it does not really matter as the attacker has fallen into a hole.	”

OK, well I still don't see how that is really that much different from Paul's idea.

“	Silk reeling has nothing to do with developing power within your own body if you mean it's primary function is hitting. It is what allows a tai chi player to keep his wuji alignment. Now, that in and of itself is a requirement of issuing power, but not the focus. The real meaning as it applied to fighing is to avoid double weighting and set up the strike.	”

Of course, it's not just for striking, it's for all your movement, but all movement isn't redirection and yielding.

“	The net result is that the the tai chi body acts as a conduit and takes the force in the ground so that it does not affect the balance of the tai chi player	”

That's a nice way to put it, and I am glad to see you recognize the relationship of rooting and redirection, but again that seems to me what Paul is doing in his example.

OKAY, I accept that silk reeling may have different definitions that fit different arts, but the common thread between them seems to be how you utilize and coordinate your own body. (which, of course, you have to do to effectively redirect your opponent).

I personally believe Taiji has room for techniques to use when you "screw up" (I mean, look at the last half of the 8 powers) To me, I don't see Taiji or no Taiji, I see a spectrum between the two and one's performance always falls inbetween the two. I feel that as Taijiquan students, if we try to wait until we are just perfect then we will never develop any skill and Taiji will die away, of course, if you try to use Taiji with no clue of proper body mechanics and yielding, you will get also get nowhere. The trick, I think, it to train what you can do, right now, and continue refining what you mechanics and body energy and sensitivity. You know, just like those Xing Yi guys.....

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

“	Originally Posted By: StormMountain True, but high level against other high levels causes interesting situations......I am not personally of the opinion that one need wait 10 years to be able to do Tai Chi effectively for fighting. Of course, one is always trying to get better, but that's no reason not to be able to apply your skill as it is, right now. OK, well I still don't see how that is really that much different from Paul's idea. Of course, it's not just for striking, it's for all your movement, but all movement isn't redirection and yielding. That's a nice way to put it, and I am glad to see you recognize the relationship of rooting and redirection, but again that seems to me what Paul is doing in his example. OKAY, I accept that silk reeling may have different definitions that fit different arts, but the common thread between them seems to be how you utilize and coordinate your own body. (which, of course, you have to do to effectively redirect your opponent). I personally believe Taiji has room for techniques to use when you "screw up" (I mean, look at the last half of the 8 powers) To me, I don't see Taiji or no Taiji, I see a spectrum between the two and one's performance always falls inbetween the two. I feel that as Taijiquan students, if we try to wait until we are just perfect then we will never develop any skill and Taiji will die away, of course, if you try to use Taiji with no clue of proper body mechanics and yielding, you will get also get nowhere. The trick, I think, it to train what you can do, right now, and continue refining what you mechanics and body energy and sensitivity. You know, just like those Xing Yi guys.....	”

Regarding when "you screw up"....I agree completely. All anyone can do at that moment of truth is the best you can...sometimes a few pieces of the puzzle are better than none at all. And let us not forget just plain dumb luck. Dumb luck has saved my butt more than I can count.

__________________
It doesn't hurt any less if you act like a puxxy.

[quote=StormMountain]

But again I don't see the contradiction. Paul clearly states that:
From my understanding, when he says "downward" he is adding to the direction the "shooter" is moving in, which is definately what the classics say to do. That being the case, Taiji still has plenty of usage of striking power (which is why I don't want to make super strict definition of force against force, because to me, that means you wouldn't punch anybody as it's force against force), NOW, I mention that in the CONTEXT of using this "press" part of the application as a strike. A good fajing strike will often use the opponent's rootedness (or in this case you could interpret it as force) against him by using his own forward momentum to ram himself into the technique. In other words, the guy doing press/pull down noticed that his opponent was using "brute force" so he used pull down to redirect his energy and used the shooter's "double weightedness" as a way to deliver a strike that he could not "move away" (absorb/yield) from. (There is also a good bit of peng, keeping the bubble, kind of thing going on there)

To me that makes perfect Tai Chi sense.


QUOTE]



Storm Mountain…. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Usually the floor is what stops the forward momentum of the opponent.



The technique is always aimed where the opponent's root is weakest. For example it's usually downward and off to the side somewhere and with one removing their root in a sideways/ backward movement away from the shooter. Depending on the skill of the shooter one might not have to move at all, just redirect the incoming force.

Also, Since there have been discussions about classics I feel I have to be careful about the word root. In this context I mean the standard full body root. In many of the classics they are not talking about the full body root they are talking about particular roots of the body. For example the root of an arm is the shoulder. If one destroys the shoulder one uproots the arm making it ineffective. Peng Jing on a shoulder works very well for this expecially when your controlling the other arm.


Subitai. wrote

I would say that the "State of Tai Chi" doesn't even exist until you are touching. If I have a stick point, then i'm using listening skill and so forth, so for me, Timing is an external attribute.

I know what you're thinking..."but nobody starts out touching"
End Quote:

Subitai

Your right no one starts out touching.

At your level of training “timing” might be external. But there is a whole other side you will move into. The “State of Taiji: doesn't start when one touches hands with an opponent. It starts when two forces oppose each other. The principles Yin and Yang according to fighting are pretty much metaphysical. All of them center on controlling/redirecting your opponent's ability to fight.

Some basic ones are (These you probably know)

Controlling the tempo of the fight. If your aggressor is fast you slow down the conflict. Do the opposite if your opponent is slow.

or

Controlling the angels before one initiates.
etc.....


(Knowing what you do with the basics is far from external)

Like taking a half step back, then when the opponent shifts their footing to address the new distance, you initiate your action. (This could be a fake, a redirection, a strike etc….) Your opponent's brain has to do two things at once, maintain its balance and decide how to respond to your action. This can have several effects on your opponent, varying from making you look much faster than you really are to reducing his assessment of what you are doing. (Probably both)

another example

Every time your opponent gets set to attack you break off and retreat to a distance just outside his bubble. This is total rhythm breaker that allows you to probe or manipulate your opponent into a position of disadvantage, or make them do something rash. Changing up the moment when you decide to break off the attack does all kids of things.


These and many more and are the factors of Yin and Yang when fighting and all are considered being in a state of Taiji

Learning how to use these tools require no laying on of the hands…these are part of Taijiquan;s listening and adhering skills. Staying attached doesn't just mean physical contact nor is it external in nature.

Again a lot of what I just talked about is manipulating your opponents timing and is clearly an internal concept.


I liked what you said about wrestling and Taijiquan. If we compare and contrast (IMO) Taijiquan in a martial sense has more in common with the wrestling/grappling arts than striking (it was how it was taught to me and how I perceive and teach the art) The wrestling techniques you posted are what drew me to Taijiquan.

1. Navy = cross the free arm underneath and trip
One of the many versions of “Snake Creeps Down”

2. Get his hips and legs up to your standing leg ankle and stand up
Part of “Ride the Tiger to the Mountain”

3.A reach through w/ the free hand and then raise you up w/ the High Crouch. Then slam you on your neck and face

If I understand this last one it's “Separate hands as if closing” or another version of “Snake creeps down.”

To me a huge part of push hands is to train sensitivity to grappling type attacks (not all of it but a large part....)

Anyway....

Yes, I agree with your last statement!

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"