Using Ji against the Shoot

Paul,

Don't let your ego get in the way. At your level, you should know this by now.

for example,

you said: "Controlling the tempo of the fight. If your aggressor is fast you slow down the conflict. Do the opposite if your opponent is slow.

or

Controlling the angels before one initiates.
etc..... "

"O" = what you are talking about is sometimes reffered to as hidden or Ghost bridging, but in fact you are now going off topic.

If you imply NO TOUCHING, how can there be JI

ha ha,

I hope you are not another one of those persons who advocate Tai Chi almightyism. Ie, anytime someone comes close to skill, you automatically label it "External" which is essentially what you are pigeon holing me into.

Just to reassert, I said "I agreed w/ you and that I was only playing devils advocate"

I believe what I originally said was complementing your earlier post.

Now what I meant by external was pretty clear.

Because the 2 examples you gave after that are nothing special. In fact they are mainstays of JKD. To do those two examples have nothing to do w/ JI...which by the way, was the main topic. More over, you DON'T need TC to learn to use those attributes.

But, those attibutes will never lead you to the path of understanding JI...especially in a Tai chi chuan sense.


you said, "Learning how to use these tools require no laying on of the hands…these are part of Taijiquan;s listening and adhering skills. "

"O" = this is a contradiction of sorts, attempting to Adhere w/o contact no matter how idealistic is just attempting to put order to chaos.

You said, "Staying attached doesn't just mean physical contact nor is it external in nature."

"O" = just in case, I didn't say a stick point was external.

You said, "Again a lot of what I just talked about is manipulating your opponents timing and is clearly an internal concept."

"O" = I disagree, those examples are used by Boxers. Are they considered internal now Is Mike Tyson internal


You said, "I liked what you said about wrestling and Taijiquan. If we compare and contrast (IMO) Taijiquan in a martial sense has more in common with the wrestling/grappling arts than striking (it was how it was taught to me and how I perceive and teach the art) The wrestling techniques you posted are what drew me to Taijiquan."

"O" = I agree w/ this, I was implying that which you said.

At my state tourney, there a blind wrestler, He always got taken down 1st, but kicked butt once he had tactile touch, he won bronze. Pretty impressive.

All your examples of, movement and distancing, are not true to Tai Chi when your are NOT touching.

As the classics say, if you don't move, I don't move. So it's a defensive art. But in all your efforts to fake, redirect or use broken rythym and such are just not what makes Tai Chi special.

Tai Chi's true killing power methods and especially to the point...."using JI" is up close and touching.

"O"

PS, read this thread below if you have some extra time:

http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/t...Arts%3C%2Fb%3E

I'm curious as to your take on this.

Subitai, what's with the "O" what does that mean

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

I just put the "O" to signify it was my thoughts begining at that point and not anyone elses

“	Originally Posted By: Subitai I just put the "O" to signify it was my thoughts begining at that point and not anyone elses	”

That and the fact that it's the first letter of your name.

Glad to see you around bro!



jeff

__________________
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it ~ Sir Winston Churchill

Subitai wrote

I hope you are not another one of those persons who advocate Tai Chi almightyism. Ie, anytime someone comes close to skill, you automatically label it "External" which is essentially what you are pigeon holing me into.

End quote:

no...this wasn't an attack on you..... Second, your right My last post was petty off topic......

From this last post it's clear we are just talking semantics.... there is no right and wrong


Subitai wrote:
Now what I meant by external was pretty clear.
End quote:

It wasn't to me ...at least in what you were describing as a state of taiji.

You wrote:
"I would say that the "State of Tai Chi" doesn't even exist until you are touching. If I have a stick point, then i'm using listening skill and so forth, so for me, Timing is an external attribute. "

Your reference to timing being external led me to think otherwise. Obviously we are talking about a difference of semantics (names) and we both know it would be foolish to take a stand on this premise.

Subitai wrote:
But, those attributes will never lead you to the path of understanding JI...especially in a Tai chi chuan sense.
End quote:

TRUE!!


Subitai wrote:
you said, "Learning how to use these tools require no laying on of the hands…these are part of Taijiquan;s listening and adhering skills. "
"O" = this is a contradiction of sorts, attempting to Adhere w/o contact no matter how idealistic is just attempting to put order to chaos.
You said, "Staying attached doesn't just mean physical contact nor is it external in nature." "O" = just in case, I didn't say a stick point was external.
You said, "Again a lot of what I just talked about is manipulating your opponents timing and is clearly an internal concept."
End qoute:

I classify listening skill adhering skill and timing all in the same category…again semantics…names……

Subitai wrote:
"O" = I disagree, those examples are used by Boxers. Are they considered internal now Is Mike Tyson internal
End qoute:

Yes! Not as much as other……but yea…..(IMO) Those are internal concepts ! How would you call or label those Metaphysical characteristics IMA or Chinese martial arts don't have an exclusive monopoly on internal methods. How do you label pulling your opponent or getting him so off/out of position without throwing a punch For example, getting them to lead with there head etc....

Again we are talking about semantics….names…… We both recognize that these things exists we are just classifying them differently…..I think it's cool that I'm even having a conversation on a news group with a guy who understands what I'm talking about vs the drool that usually goes on in these internet news groups.


Subati wrote:
All your examples of, movement and distancing, are not true to Tai Chi when your are NOT touching.
End quote:

Again we are pointing at the same thing....I don't think it matter what we call it so much as we understand them and what's going on..

Function over form!!!

Subitai wrote:
As the classics say, if you don't move, I don't move. So it's a defensive art. But in all your efforts to fake, redirect or use broken rhythm and such are just not what makes Tai Chi special
End quote:

This I disagree with, there is a deeper meaning to the you don't move/I don't move thing.....again it's metaphysical......(i.e. internal)

If we discussed what I mean here it's a good bet that you will go "no that's such and such…” again just names not a difference ...lol....

Taiji special Not anymore than any other art.....If I sounded like I was implying that, then my words misrepresented my true intensions





Subati wrote:
PS, read this thread below if you have some extra time:

http://www.forumco.com/hungkuennet/t...Arts%3C%2Fb%3E

I'm curious as to your take on this

End quote:

Nice article.....I agree with it
What did you think about it

I think you put it well...ie semantics.

I realize it could go on and on.

You said, "Yes! Not as much as other……but yea…..(IMO) Those are internal concepts ! How would you call or label those Metaphysical characteristics IMA or Chinese martial arts don't have an exclusive monopoly on internal methods. How do you label pulling your opponent or getting him so off/out of position without throwing a punch For example, getting them to lead with there head etc...."

"O" = Well, I agree we are talking about levels of understanding.

But to me pulling w/o 1st recieving is very low level. If I pull you, I give you a tremendous amount of tactile energy to work with. In this case, if you know how to follow me, i'll be in a bad position.

And that is really what is important to me, to able place someone in a disrupted state. In musical terms, it would be like being a "Beat OFF" in time. Once you have your foe like this, you can attack w/ impunity.

Like the article I reffered you to, my response to it was developing the gun. If you have the gun, then you can use JI very easily. Read my responses to it.

What I didn't say about the article is my own experience w/ fajing. Which was to be able to explode a 200lb hvy bag away from touching it distance. It took me a few months to develop the tan tien movement and control to do this.

One day, after I was done developing the power, my sifu walked up and said, you have bullets but how good is your gun

So now, that is why I answer the way I do. I train to develop this gun (delivery) vs diffterent types of people (big or small) as much as I can for that very reason. The bullets are easy the gun is lifelong pursuit.

That's what drew me to your topic in the 1st place, because you were talking about a subject I grapple with daily. Bridging TMA with and vs Modern MMA in a practical sense.

"O"

Very cool thoughts guys. It's good to see people keeping things dynamic in their training.

Good points with the "gun" analogy. I was showing my student how powerful my beng chuan was, and he was really impressed...........but I was like, well that's easy, but to hit somebody that way in a live sparring/fighting situation....................don't be impressed till I can consistently do it then!

__________________
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Cam McHargue"

__________________
By nature we have an open mind by dogma we close it.

“	Originally Posted By: Subitai I think you put it well...ie semantics. I realize it could go on and on. You said, "Yes! Not as much as other……but yea…..(IMO) Those are internal concepts ! How would you call or label those Metaphysical characteristics IMA or Chinese martial arts don't have an exclusive monopoly on internal methods. How do you label pulling your opponent or getting him so off/out of position without throwing a punch For example, getting them to lead with there head etc...." "O" = Well, I agree we are talking about levels of understanding. But to me pulling w/o 1st recieving is very low level. If I pull you, I give you a tremendous amount of tactile energy to work with. In this case, if you know how to follow me, i'll be in a bad position. And that is really what is important to me, to able place someone in a disrupted state. In musical terms, it would be like being a "Beat OFF" in time. Once you have your foe like this, you can attack w/ impunity. Like the article I reffered you to, my response to it was developing the gun. If you have the gun, then you can use JI very easily. Read my responses to it. What I didn't say about the article is my own experience w/ fajing. Which was to be able to explode a 200lb hvy bag away from touching it distance. It took me a few months to develop the tan tien movement and control to do this. One day, after I was done developing the power, my sifu walked up and said, you have bullets but how good is your gun So now, that is why I answer the way I do. I train to develop this gun (delivery) vs diffterent types of people (big or small) as much as I can for that very reason. The bullets are easy the gun is lifelong pursuit. That's what drew me to your topic in the 1st place, because you were talking about a subject I grapple with daily. Bridging TMA with and vs Modern MMA in a practical sense. "O"	”

I meant "pulling" someone out of posistion without physicaly touching them.

Your comment are...always interesting

“	Originally Posted By: Paul Calugaru It's the holiday season and I'm not at work or practicing Taijiquan. Thought I'd drum up some activity on the Dragon net. This post is geared for the beginning martial Taijiquan enthusiast No matter what style of Taijiquan you practice they all have a long history of the ability to stymie wrestlers. I thought I would throw out some of the Taijiquan strategies I teach or have been taught in dealing with wrestlers in general. Tou Shou or push-hands is a very fundamental, this we all know. When doing push hands we are taught to keep our Dan tan (our center) on an even plain with our partner. When facing an aggressive opponent it is no different. By keeping our center of gravity even with opponents allows us to attack underneath, to the sides and from above to our opponents root. This also protects our root from the same attacks. The main objective of wrestlers is to get their opponents off their feet in which they gain an advantage. we are all well aware of this I know) The usual way a wrestlers achieves this is the good old shoot. In its truest form it's a full out diving tackle towards your legs, usually with the head and shoulder off center to avoid any knees. However, in order to launch a shoot, wrestlers must lower their center before they dive in. By keeping your center on the level of his you match his mobility and minimize the area open for the shoot. One application I use to thwart the shoot involves using Ji or press. It's not a normal press where the arm is horizontal with the supporting hand assisting. The Ji (or press) I use for the shoot is a vertical one. See attachments If done correctly the vertical forearm slams/strikes downward and forward into the area between the neck and shoulder stopping the forward momentum of the shoot. If done full bore serious injury to the shooter could result… like broken collar bones at the very least, be careful!!!) There many applications you can now proceeded to do. If the wrestler is doing a full shoot he will fall flat in front of you. If he's doing a modified shoot with one leg still underneath him, you can use a rollback maneuver with your hips still pushing into his neck diagonally downwards and to the side. You can use the point of the elbow to dig into the numerous pressure points in the area and drive him to the mat. If he has your leg, straighten it as well as your back as in a traditional sprawl. He will find that the tighter he tries to hold on to your leg the double the force on the neck. Experiment with this. There are a lot of applications that I have not covered when using this sort of vertical ji. Remember your opponent is moving. The above is all about knowing when your opponent is going to shoot towards your legs. Timing is everything and Knowledge is power. Once I came across a couple of tricky jujitsuka that had an on guard stance like a Mui Tai fighter (they stood almost straight up with hands in the air vertically spread apart) They did this to block any attacks and to get their opponents to raise their guard and center of gravity. Then after a couple trivial kicks and punches would shoot in. Always stay on guard protect your center.	”

bump

__________________
Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893

Thanks for this post I have been doing Taijiquan for a while as a form of cross training and just recently began going back to class again. I work out and teach at a school that pays the rent through MMA training and competition. I tried this technique this week on a couple of guys and it worked like a charm. Never would have thought of it mayself and my Taiji teacher doesn't emphasize application. I found that as long as I maintained the proper distance and did not lose my root from the intial impact I could just pry the guy right off. Great technique thanks again.

haven't read all five pages, but that app works better when you use the same hand as your lead leg (say left hand/leg) to wrap the opponent arm on that side (his right arm) and the pull his elbow up so he can't go for the ankle or knee pick. make sure you use the elbow to leverage down on his neck.

i suppose it's not really ji... maybe more of a lie.

wow, back in the day when people played nice...a real discussion. good bump

__________________

Aw, Unk, you were so polite back then!

As always!

__________________
Wolfgang says:

I could think of a million better things to do in Japan for a month besides jumping off of picnic tables. - x893