Ironbody/ herbal medicine

i am just surprised that he knows you are practicing and hasn't helped or told you not to study

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"Holy bat farts"
"Just remember there's many kinds of toughness in this world and not all of them involve kicking in someone's teeth to prove a point." SammyGirl Fan Club

I wonder why he's not giving any direction if he has experience. But that's between you and him. Anyway, the iron palm ppl I've talked to in my system talk a little bit about the training; it's about 4 months of daily progressive training, always soft, always with jow before & after, no sex. At the end of the training period they are tested by breaking a series of bricks/concrete. One person told me that 2 days before his test he was showing off for friends by smashing concrete blocks, his sifu saw him and was really pissed off. Said that even though it was only 2 days away, he was weakening the skill by breaking before it was time.

That's quite different from stories I've read about karate students (including Ed Parker) who were told to just train by actually breaking stuff, from the first day onward.

Here's a question for iron palm exponents: Why is the practice mostly limited to men?

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

He probably thinks I'm too young to try it.
I'm only 15, and he's one of those "No advanced training until you're --- age"
people. No matter how skilled I am, how mature I am or anything.
He believes that age is everything, which I know not to be true.

Answer: girls have softer hands, therefore would take longer to train?
Plus, most girls wouldn't like the pain.

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If the problem has a solution, worrying is pointless, in the end the problem will be solved. If the problem has no solution, there is no reason to worry, because it can't be solved.

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl it's about 4 months of daily progressive training, always soft, always with jow before & after, no sex.	”

The sex part is only an issue for certain people, but is generally made a guideline. It shouldnt be an issue for a 20 year old, but would probably be an issue for a 40 year old. Its all about the kidneys...

“	That's quite different from stories I've read about karate students (including Ed Parker) who were told to just train by actually breaking stuff, from the first day onward.	”

Iron palm is a soft relaxed exercise. If you slammed your hand down on a concrete block from day 1, youre almost assured to break something. IP is about being soft and relaxed and it produces a different type of strike. When a karate guy breaks bricks they use spacers because their force is based on getting through the next brick with lots of velocity. When an iron palm guy breaks bricks, he doesnt use spacers because he relies on a longitudinal wave to break each successive brick. Its very different.

In the end though, breaking something is just a way of measuring where you are at....its certainly not the goal state.

“	Here's a question for iron palm exponents: Why is the practice mostly limited to men?	”

Umm....its not? Ive never heard that before, but from a porportional perspective, it would make sense that you dont see very many women train in iron palm, as there arent very many women in martial arts, and even less that take it seriously enough to care about training that sort of thing every day...

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

And there ya have it folks, Iron Palm 101.

Thanks a lot.

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If the problem has a solution, worrying is pointless, in the end the problem will be solved. If the problem has no solution, there is no reason to worry, because it can't be solved.

“	Originally Posted By: Seh He probably thinks I'm too young to try it. I'm only 15, and he's one of those "No advanced training until you're --- age" people. No matter how skilled I am, how mature I am or anything. He believes that age is everything, which I know not to be true. Answer: girls have softer hands, therefore would take longer to train? Plus, most girls wouldn't like the pain.	”

Heh heh, you don't know most girls! Well you're probably seeing teenage girls, believe me, it's almost all acting for your benefit.

Plum Dragon, I've read articles here & there where historically, IP masters wouldn't teach women for various reasons, one being that the jow herbs used would make them infertile. Considering that some jow formulations back then contained cinnabar (mercury), that's probably true!

I have seen a few pics of one of my older kung fu sisters breaking concrete blocks, so I know it has been taught to at least 1 female in my system.

Seh -- 15 is too young, it's not just a traditional thing it's a science thing. Your bones are still growing. But now is a perfect time to train your muscles, perfect technique, speed, jump height, all around awesomeness. Because after about age 24-25, that all starts going downhill for most. Enjoy it while you have it!

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

The senior Master of our system is a woman, and her Iron Palm is second to none.

Women do train and are taught.

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Oh THAT'S how that works!

Iron Palm should not be undertaken on ones own. There are many factors involved that can hinder if not cause harm if not addressed when they arise.

I have been invited to present Iron Palm as well as internal Iron Vest to the Zhang Sang Feng Festival this coming May 31st to June 3rd 2007.

You can find out more at: http://www.taichifest.com

Remember that Iron Vest/Iron Body has many different programs to train it. Some use external methods to hit their bodies much akin to Three Star Hitting your forearms. Others are internal programs that use serious amounts of standing and certain twisting and stretching methods to affect the body. The method I teach uses an internal medicine to help cool down the jing that is created and strengthened when performing the set daily.

For anyone interested you can contact me via PM here or through my emails and websites.

Be well, train hard and practice safely.

Dale Dugas
Certified Instructor
New England Jiulong Baguazhang Wu Guan
Coiling Dragon Internal Arts Association
Combat Iron Palm Iron Vest Association

PO Box 35
North Quincy, MA
02171-0001
617-595-8097

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Plum Dragon, I've read articles here & there where historically, IP masters wouldn't teach women for various reasons, one being that the jow herbs used would make them infertile. Considering that some jow formulations back then contained cinnabar (mercury), that's probably true!	”

Well Sammy, lets clarify a few things:
- Historically, women have been fairly persecuted and supressed, just like slaves, blacks, etc. The likelihood that women were taught martial arts, and specifically IP, was probably extremely small and probably had something to do with the historical social structure (or the fact they didnt want possibly pregnant mothers expending healing effort on their hands rather than a potential fetus) far more than it had anything to do with the herbs in formula.
- As toxic as Zhu Sha (cinnibar) is, it is NOT contraindicated in pregnancy and has shown no teratogenic birth defects. It has not been shown to cause infertility, and it doesnt even enter those meridians; it works on the heart.
- LD50 of Zhu Sha is 12.1 g/Kg and overdose of this substance would be more akin to an overdose on an antihistamine than something that would screw with fertility.
- There are sooooooo many IP formulas out there, and most of them do not use Zhu Sha. In fact, the place yovue probably seen it is in wing chun bruise recipes that are based loosely on the classical Qi Li San formula, and even then only as a coating in quite small doses...

“	Originally Posted By: Sammygirl Seh -- 15 is too young	”

I tend to agree with this statement.

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PlumDragon Herbs: Dit Da Jow and Iron Palm Liniments

"When a handshake passes the elbow, it becomes Judo."

Cinnabar should be avoided at all costs. Historically it is ok to understand its used within Chinese Medicine but more than that it should be treated like toxic waste and not touched, never used no matter the situation and ignored.

Many Chinese herbs are treated with various heavy metals.

Everyone should be aware that this happens and should seek out suppliers that offer herbs that are tested and proven to be free of heavy metals, sulphur and other substances that are toxic and will endanger your health.

There are sources here in the us for bulk herbs as well as patent medicines where the biggest culprits lay.

Always use caution and source out your herbs as well as anything you ingest or you will pay the price. It is not worth it.

Remember that you should be enhancing your life with training and not hurting yourself.

All this talk about people training until they bleed or have serious amounts of injuries is rather lame to see. Use your common sense and take care rather than harm yourself.

be well,

Dale Dugas
Certified Instructor
New England Jiulong Baguazhang Wu Guan
Coiling Dragon Internal Arts Association
Combat Iron Palm Iron Vest Association

PO Box 35
North Quincy, MA
02171-0001
617-595-8097
http://www.coilingdragon.com
http://www.ironpalmcombat.com

Good info from both PD and Dale Dugas (welcome BTW), thank you!

Mercury is found in so many common everday things, including old dental fillings, and as a stabilizer in certain immunizations. The body can eliminate mercury but only at a certain rate, and there's a concern that we ingest too much.

Way back, the taoists considered mercury an elixir for immortality (many cultures considered it magic because of its interesting properties) and even drank it. Considering that we only recently learned how dangerous it was, the old masters probably had certain jow formulas with far more than the safe range.

Another big concern that Dale pointed out is lead content. Anytime you buy Chinese medicine OTC there's a good possibility that it has a fairly high amount of lead in it. I don't know about other heavy metals but lead, like mercury, is something you really don't want too much of.

I also wonder if any herbs used in jow formulas would have negative side effects for women/anyone.

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"Pain can be a great teacher of compassion and humility."~ Unkotare-san

"Whatever the case, it proves that countless disasters can be prevented by simply assuming everyone you're working with is a moron." ~ Adam Brown, 5 Tiny Mistakes...

Mayway sells pretty decent OTC patent medicines marketed under the Min Shan Brand. They seem to be the cleaner of the bunch and test low for toxic metals.

When in doubt buy decent herbs and make the soup or tea. Real Chinese medicine can taste like death but I would rather have a nasty taste than ingest lead, mercury or some other toxic substance.

On a sidenote: any and all forms of dit da jow and dit da pills are precautioned when women are close to their cycle and/or pregnant. These forms of medicine move blood and can cause women to have their cycles early and or cause them to self abort in the early stages of pregnancy.

Be well,

Dale

Seh, I recommend that you not do Iron Palm training until you find an instructor well-versed in it.

You really don't want to be destroying your own hands.

Regards,

Miluo

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”

Understood. I'll stop with that and practice the things that Sammy encouraged.

Thanks.

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If the problem has a solution, worrying is pointless, in the end the problem will be solved. If the problem has no solution, there is no reason to worry, because it can't be solved.

No problem. We can't always have everything we want. Plus, you don't NEED Iron Palm to learn how to kick ass. It's just a plus.

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“	Originally Posted By: KungFuMan I also learned a praying mantis fist style from watching the actual insect itself. This was before I actually learned some seven star mantis.	”