Handling a Gun Encounter

I've asked this in another discussion forum also but thought some of you (especially some of you) will have some great input, so....

Okay, I train within an organization that has helped train some goverment, and state officials in the use of weapons and unarmed combat for a while now and I have personally trained in knife and gun control, armed and unarmed for a while now also.

But here the other day, I experienced the first encounter I have ever had against a live gun. And I had some questions about how others deal with this type of violence as I now have seen myself grow from the incident. Any feedback will be appreciated.

The story/situation: A total misunderstanding, but a man thought that I was trespassing upon some family property. I was checking in on my cousin's house, (he was gone out for a couple weeks of military training) and was walking through the house when a very distance family member stopped by to see who was on the property...guess he had been asked to check in on the house also. Anyway, I was walking around the side of the house getting ready to leave out when I was confronted by a man and rifle! He had the rifle down by his side and asked me in a harsh tone what the **** I was doing? I explaining that I was checking in on my cousin's house and returned the question.

We got into an argument, and it wavered back and forth in intensity and I could start tell he was getting aggitated and a little nervous. He was at least a good 15-20 feet away and then my training kicked in because he started to craddle the gun a little...I started using my wits and talked the situation down, telling him over and over who I was, who my family was, what I was doing and etc., after getting him a little calmer, but barely...I decided I needed to close the distance as a rifle would be harder for him to use up close and personal. (While stepping towards him) I told him I was sorry for the confusion, that I was just doing what I was told to do and offered out my hand for a handshake. He fell for it and it ended up putting me face to face with him where I would have been able to handle him better if he had decided to start to raise the gun.
We still had some harsh words, because he wasn't getting what I was saying (he had to be late 50's to late 60's, hardcore farmer type indiviual, who actually seemed to be off his meds or not on the right ones, something...) BUT in the end we settled, I locked up the place and seperated. Thank goodness for correct thinking and correct training when I needed it. LOL

I have always been trained that in order to handle a gun (if it HAS to come down to that kind of situation) you should try your best to talk to the person causing a a type of mental distraction, and be in good range. From there it depends upon your style and the actual situation. Anyways...

How do some of you other practioners deal with guns? Do you train to defend yourself against them, do you use pyschological advancements to help pull the situation to your favor? Etc? Like I said, I'm just trying to get feedback from other's! Appreciate it and thank you.

-Ngfamilymember

__________________
If you want something you have never had, You have to do something you have never done!
-Unknown

Good thinking, and the only thing I can add is what I've been told by police officers,(if the situation gets out-of-hand) to run/dive/zig-zag in the opposite direction of the 'pull/squeeze' of the 'trigger-finger'! So if the perp' is holding the gun/trigger in his right hand, you need to run/dive/zig-zag to the Right! (As he pulls the trigger, it is clenching/moving to the left)

I recently saw a video of a little old lady being robbed in a store. The guy walked in with his gun drawn and when he walked up to her, she grabbed the gun, they had a little tug-of-war, and then she chased him out of the store. Not recommending that since he obviously just didn't want to shoot the little old lady, but I thought it was cute.

Anyway, glad you were able to talk the guy down. Could have ended badly.

Well, I can see the reasoning, but personally, I wouldn't close up to someone wielding a rifle, since he could take this for an attempt to position for an attack. And raise it in your face. Especially when you have good arguments to talk yourself out of the situation.

I would have soothened him saying something like "You have a gun, I have none, so you have nothing to fear. If you don't believe me, call the police and wait for them." Tell him you want to reach in your pocket (SLOWLY), and show him your passport / ID card, whatever your name is on. I'd even explain to him what he should watch for IF you were a criminal. Not let you get too close, ask for the passport fetched with the left hand from the wide open jacket, drop it to your feet and step back wide away enough, open the door, walk to the phone, call the police, give them your name, and ask for an officer to drop by and clear the situation. You can show him that you have the keys for the house because you got them from your cousin. If a real criminal talks him out of the situation to own him later, he would be f*ed. So it's better to teach him how to handle such a situation the safe way too.

On the running away from a gun, of course, if you HAVE to do it because the guy shoots anyways, you have to try. You could either try to reach safety, running to the blind side like said. However, a stone cold criminal would follow you, so you have to take a way that allows to run away to safety further. Being trapped behind a desk with no gun is not cool, you will get shot unless he runs away. Other possibility is to run AT him, if it's not too far, coming in also over the blind side in an arc and doing an immediate tackle.

In both cases, it's a lottery. If it's just Uncle Scrooge, you SHOULD talk yourself out of the situation, offering to call the police from a safe position. Uncle Scrooge might have been a hunter when younger, so he WILL hit you even when running away. Once you trigger the instinct, he might then do it even if he didn't want to shoot first.

__________________
"Fawning, but proud!" - (at least sometimes, in rare cases)
"Killing them all didn't make it any better..." - "Are you a freak or something ???" - Max Payne
"Theft is a crime, even in Iraq." - Me.

Don't think that any two situations are going to be the same....that's a bad habit to have

__________________
If the road that you are on brought you here then what good is the road?

Thanks guys/gals, I appreciate the feedback.

I've heard about the running to the flank side of the opponent and I've heard that it works better if you're cutting at specific angle as it is harder to hit targets moving that way unless you train consistantly with a gun to do so.

Nik, you made some good points. Can't argue with you there and I'm not for sure if I would have done it the same way or not. I believe your way would have probably saved us from the static we were experiencing. Though, I think Aqira said it best, No "two situations are going to be the same". I'm not sure how I would have handled it if we were to do it again. Hopefully I don't run into an encounter again BUT if I do, I hope I'm just as lucky...LOL.

Miss K, yeah it could have ended badly but I'm glad it didn't!

I know a flaw that I contributed during the event was that I was just as headstrong as the other guy and that didn't help the argument/situation. I was trying to be calm, but the old man wasn't getting what I was saying and so after a while I even got a little aggrivated and started pressing him with a harsher tone. Should have probably mellowed out a little bit and that would have helped out, but oh well, lesson learned!

Thanks,
-Ngfamilymember

__________________
If you want something you have never had, You have to do something you have never done!
-Unknown

i think you handled it well

he didnt shoot you

you didnt get shot

good job

__________________
a knife, a fork, a bottle and a cork, thats the way we spell new york

LOL good point.

-Ngfamilymember

__________________
If you want something you have never had, You have to do something you have never done!
-Unknown

What the pope said.

I have to admit that my experience of being on the wrong end of a gun is very limited (and I hope it stays that way) and extends to doing exactly what I was told until I could calm down the guys with the guns and persuade them to let me go on my way. It's certainly a good way to sober up...

I have seen a small group deal very effectively with an armed man who had his gun in his hand. They didn't stop him firing before they controled him but they did manage to make sure he didn't hit any one, disarm him, and escort him away for a ride in their black mercedes. They used numbers, positioning, the kind of basic stand up grappling so often derided on the dlist (it was exactly like good tai chi but was almost certainly judo based local stuff) but mostly they used extensive experience, attitude, and their willingness to hurt and be hurt to take advantage of his hesitation.

__________________
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you
High mountains are a feeling
I don't need to sell my soul, he's already in me

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone in my generation here who hasn't at some point had a gun pointed in their face.

And like Aqira said, every situation is different. The fact that you were ok in the end means you dealt with it correctly. You aren't psychic, and can't be expected to do everything right with someone you don't know who is a potential threat to your life.

Long range barehand against a gun, is potentially the most dangerous range to be in.

And in general, when a gun is involved and it is such a high risk situation, you have to really question if you are willing to put what you know to that test.

Here is some general stuff I have learned from various sources and my own observations and experiences. It is not going to always apply, and there are no 100% answers to any of this stuff.

Something Crafty Dog from Dog Brothers teaches, which I think is a nice way to approach situations with potential for danger. He categorises responses into Plan A, B, C , D etc. A "plan A" response is the best because it is the response that if it fails, leaves you in the best possible position to recover. So when you are training full contact drills with rubber guns and whatnot, when you make a mistake, take note of what kind of situation that move leaves you in when it fails. If it makes your situation even worse, then it's not Plan A stuff. Hope that makes sense, he explains it much better.

Don't look people in the eyes if you are going to make some kind of "move" to get control of their gun/weapon. In a high stress adrenal situations, people can actually see your pupils dilate as you are about to attack. It's very subtle, but experienced criminals have been known to pick it up.

You should also take note of how you hold your hands and your posture, is your posture aggressive or passive, are your hands in the best possible position to appear neutral, but be able to quickly cover as many primal angles of attack as possible. There are many interesting Fences that can be applied or modified to suit the situation.

Also, if you are subtle about it, try to establish a repoire, by using similar speech patterns and body posture. This can calm someone down without them realising what you are doing.

If the situation goes sour, I know it sounds so obvious, but the number one rule is to get away from the line that comes out that barrel. If you get in close enough, say he hasn't drawn his weapon but he is going for it, if you can get behind him, it can be easier to control his weapon and prevent him from hitting you with his free arm, if you understand the positional control from there.

Professionaly trained shooters, for example SWAT officers, if they get into a situation where the criminal and they have to draw at the same time, the SWAT will usually use footwork to spiral out and away from the line of fire as he draws, and would make his body sideways while returning fire to minimise target area. The main rule here is don't stop moving and keep away from the line of fire.

It's good the way your situation went, if you had been able to grab his gun, you would have had to give him something painful to remember you by to avoid risking getting shot in the tussle. Better not to have to wail on old people whenever possible right ?

I doubt I would have handled it any better, probably would have been worse, who knows.

Your situation does highlight an aspect that is often neglected from MA programs, which is Speech and Awareness training. How to talk someone down, how to snap their mind out of Monkey Brain mode, how not to piss people off more.

__________________
"To alcohol ! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson