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Kung Fu in sparring/fight

Discussion in 'Animal Forms & Styles' started by ThraxDalgren, Apr 5, 2002.

  1. Offline

    ThraxDalgren

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    Just an opinion question.

    I was talking with a senior student the other night. He has been in the style about a year longer than me. We were talking about sparring (and fighting) and he did not believe that the movements that we learn in the forms can be used for fighting/sparring. He felt that your mind was better dedicated to just thinking in streamlined ways of what your opponent was capable of and how to counter those moves. But when I watch him spar he NEVER uses animals (we are in Hung Gar Kung Fu), his stances are very high (and anyone who takes HGKF knows about the low solid stances) and he seems to favor kicks.

    I was actually quite surprised about his opinion of the forms. I thought he did not do the animals so as not to hurt anyone, but now I know different.

    But myself, I try very hard to actually use the techniques and the animals during sparring (mind you I do not actually try to hit the person). I feel that to do otherwise is a waste of my time and a disrespect to the style.

    Soooooooooo, my question to you is: Do you feel that the techniques in your style's (whatever sytle, doesn't matter) forms can be used for combat, or no
  2. Offline

    Le nOObi

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    dfasd

    What an idiot! If he doesnt believe in using hung gar techniques why is he in hung gar If he thinks the forms are so useless he should attempt to spar against your teacher!

    Then he would see that its better to actually train in techniques than to make stuff up on the spot!
  3. Offline

    januswt

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    in wing chun all the techniques that we learn in the form can be used in fighting

    i pratice wing tsun because i really belive in the style

    i belive that high kicks or no good

    so a try to follow the style

    what i cant understand is:

    if he dont use the for and dont belive in hung gar why is he practice it

    i think u are much more advanced than him.

    (really sorry about the writting)
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    animal_stylez Allumni

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    I agree with the posts here! If he doesn't believe in using the techniques he has learned, why train Hung Ga Better off learning San Shou or Kick Boxing. Sounds like he favors kick boxing more if he's doing a lot more kicking now!!

    Sounds like he just wants to be able to say he studies Kung Fu to impress people.!! :rolleyes:
  5. Offline

    FireDragon2576

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    TD

    Your classmate is a fool, fighting techniques are exactly what the forms are supposed to teach, with his opinion, he does not deserve the gift of Kung Fu, or to study it, much less any other Martial Art!

    I am a Si Buk in White Crane Kung Fu, and yes you can use the animal forms, and the techniques that the forms teach you in combat, as for sparring, that is a little difficult, some of the techniques in White Crane could not be used in sparring, simply becouse of the effect and result which they produce, such as bone breaking and nerve attacks, you do not apply those unless needed.

    Ignore your classmate and keep focusing on using the animal techniques, you are on the right track, that is what you are supposed to learn and use.

    FORMS TEACH TECHNIQUE AND TACTIC!
  6. Offline

    Le nOObi

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    asds

    Its important to develope things such as muscle memory through lots of practice. You shouldnt try to force yourself to do moves directly out of forms. this guys sounds like a fool though!
  7. Offline

    Suhfu Cicco

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    Actually, this sounds like what I witness in many martial arts schools not just kung fu ones! Students that can't apply their forms and techniques. This is usually from lack of being taught and how they are used in self defense. I start students right out at first rank learning through a specific method of sparring how to apply them. Down the road of advancement and skill you then see them applying everything they learned easily.

    I really see many schools students falling back to TKD style of point sparring motions that lack any real power and skill that they have learned at the Chinese studio! Again, this is due to wrong teaching methods. Students have to be shown what to do or they revert to the childish arm and leg waving method of fighting and loose what connection they need to their training! As what was mentioned, it also has to do with muscle memory and this student must not practice very much or doesn't take the time to break apart his forms and see exactly "what" he's doing!



    I do have a question though..:rolleyes: ..where is the teacher at to see this lack of skill and properly tell him how and why he needs to apply what he's there to learn in the first place No insult intended against the sifu, but it confuses me when this is allowed to even progress to someone being there that long and sucking like that:confused:

    Just my personal take on it but really, this does smack at the heart of what students are supposed top be learning when they train!
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    Shinwa

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    This exactly describes the CMA (fake) people that competed in the early UFC's. They had no skills whatsoever and opened up the fights with ridiculous high kicks, and later swinging their arms like kids. I don't think real CMA people will ever compete in a chicken fight like that. In the old days in challenge matches they did it with honor, and with class. On a high circular platform with no rules or regulations.
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    Dark_Samurai

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    waht a fool!

    The guy is not in the good art for him, that's all

    :cool:
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    WraithAlcon Contributing Author

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    The Animals are extremely powerful. What might be this student's problem is the "Bruce Lee" syndrome. That is to say that an impresionable young martial artist learns about Bruce Lee and how he thought forms were a waste of time, this then translates into the student's thoughts.

    Honestly, I read that and shook my head. Forms are the foundation for learning techniques when you do not have the opportunity to practice with a partner. As was stated earlier they teach the student the various techniques and ingrain them in the muscle memory. Sometimes when I spar I'll actually recound entire sections of a form I know, not just to be doing it, but because my opponent is reacting in such a manner as the form prescribed. Its way cool. Just the other day I Snaked my way to victory with a sneaky throat attack that's in a Snake form.

    The counterpoint about poorly trained fighters is that it is dependant on the school. Perhaps the particular school does not favor "classical" approaches and wants to conform to the TKD sparring guidelines so they can compete and win some trophies. I don't agree with it, but that's another perspective.
  11. Offline

    ThraxDalgren

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    Well I appreciate everyone posting their opinion. We'll see if anything changes as time goes on (we are both only blue sash, so we have about 5-6 years before we would be black and officially qualified to teach). I think he'll change his opinion as time goes on :)
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    crazybuddha

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    As you can tell from this and many other forums, everyone has their own understanding of how to do things. The fact that you are pondering your sihing's opinion shows that you are interested in increasing your own understanding.

    Regarding sparring, I would suggest not taking it too seriously. It has a purpose, but it isn't fighting by any stretch. And it certainly isn't about understanding the faht. Besides, you don't really decide to use a technique. You either have it or you don't. This goes for the principles as well, although your understanding of them will never stop growing.

    As far as teaching the pai is concerned, it's really useless to second-guess the actual needs of the student body as determined by the sifu. You can be pretty sure that what's best for building foundation in hung kuen isn't necessarily what brings in and keeps students. And without students, there's no school.
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    Mo Ming

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    yes...lol
  14. Offline

    Faarooq

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    I am not going to call im a fool, because I don't think I should. However, I will say he either doesn't practice using his moves or hasn't gained the confidence to use the.

    What I do is I focus on working the moves from that I learn within my system. I practices the graps and the strikes (within limits of course) this is how you gain the confidence to execute those moves. As you gradually work these moves and gain confidence in applying them, you instinctively begin to use the.

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    Jaron Allumni

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    My thoughts exactly. First week of class the Sifu talked about the fundamentals of Hung Gar. We are in-fighters. Stances must be low to be rooted and to draw energy from the earth. Guess he must've missed that day... As for kicking, maybe I could give him a little credit and say he's trying to confuse people when he spars. If you're expecting to defend Hung Gar, you don't pay as much attention to the legs. Yeah, maybe that's it... or he's... never mind

    ;)
  16. Offline

    Faarooq

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    True there is a significant amount of in-fighting with not only Hungar but a number of Southern systems. However, to say you don't pay much attention to the legs would be a critical mistake. Because, although you are primarily rooted in Hungar, there are situations that one could run into that would prove this statement incorrect.

    You have some, who practice Hungar, who are very capable as kickers, even from stances that are low. You have people, like my former Sifu and his Sifu who not only know the Hungar system (to include the Iron Wire and most of the weapons) but who are well-versed in some of the Northern stuff where the stances are there and where their the more glossy kicks are used.

    Secondly, in Hungar there are a number of kicks one can add to their arsenal that would make the feet something to contend with. There is the Cross-kick which is extremely stealthy, the chin kick, the Low side kick (either thrown with a thrust or in a snapping method as seen in forms like the Kung Tze or the Fu Hok) and you also have a front snapping groin kick. In fact, there are a number of applications in the Hungar forms that depict kicks in them, these applications are more subtle than anything, but nonetheless, the kicks are there. In short, never under estimate kicking in any CMA system. Even though many Chinese systems, primarily Southern but a few Northern don't place a direct emphasis on kicking, all of the Chinese systems (and yes Hungar too) have kicking hidden in their applications. In fact, the Fu Hok finishes with the famous "Shadowless kick", if you want the history of that technique, I am sure your Sifu can explain that.
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    Jaron Allumni

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    I guess my intended sarcasm didn't shine thru on that last post. However in addition, I didn't mean that you discount the legs of ANY opponent. As you say, nearly every system includes some kicks. I meant that thru taking Hung Gar, it seems that a much higher emphasis is placed on arm strikes, be it fist, palm, forearm, elbow, or even shoulder. I've been taught many more arm striking techniques than kicks. I'm not sure if this is from the learning progression, ie arm strikes are easier to learn thus are taught first. But I hear my Sifu concentrate his teaching on close range, in-fighting techniques, where many kicks are much less effective. My point, other than sarcasm, was that if you are defending yourself against someone you know does Hung Gar exclusively, you'll be much more aware of his arm and hand position since he will probably want to move inside as well.
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    fireinthewater

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    You should be aware of the full body, some people might tell you to look @ either the eye's or the chest. But you should find what works and flow.
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    nevilleb Allumni

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    ALPHABETS & LETTERS



    Hah!!!:D

    Give your friend a piece of paper and a pen and ask him to write "ALPHABETS & NUMBERS"... he's likely to give you a quizical look, but tell him it's important...

    Once he's done that, ask him if he would have been able to do that if he hadn't jumped through all those hoops in school where we all learnt to painstakingly write out them alphabets and numbers as toddlers.

    Much has been written about forms and techniques -- they are based on principles and they have their use -- they build a foundation on which the student can build further, they teach movement, they teach feeling, they teach man many things... just as alphabets and numbers are the building blocks of sentences.

    Having explained all this to your friend, now tell him to again write out "ALPHABETS & NUMBERS" this time thinking in his mind the equivalent of "now I will write an A", "now I will write an L" and so on...

    ... he'll find it impossible to do so.

    Which means that even in the martial arts, you have to go beyond techniques at one point.. but to go BEYOND technique, you must first HAVE techniques! Getty :brow:

    nevilleb
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    Tsuruken Allumni

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    Good points Nevilleb,

    Sadly in this "I want it right now" day and age the fundamental concepts, principles and techniques are often overlooked for the sake of getting to the destination quicker rather than actually taking time to simply enjoy the journey.

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