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Tcm & Grappling

Discussion in 'Other' started by Mark R., Jan 13, 2012.

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    Mark R. Banninated

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    My opinion of why there are so many TMA that are anti-grappling is becuase "we" as TMA have put in ALOT of time and training to learn something that has tradition, we learned all the things that go with it (the whole honor, respect, discipline, etc....). So many MMA fighters lack this. I know ALOT of MMA fighters that go out looking to prove themselves at a bar. They seem so quick to fight. I think alot of TMA think that MMA people are trying to take a short cut in learning only what they want to learn from 4 or 5 different arts. This isn't always the case though, not trying to put down MMA because it definitely is useful.
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    Yes I agree with this statement Mark. I actually left my first school after the contract was up because of the personality clash I had with the majority of the instructors and students. But will say grappling arts like Judo, traditional Ju Jujitsu and some BJJ schools do teach there students to have respect but they get categorized in the MMA and Grappling mentality allot of the time.

    I still believe TMA Students should learn the basics of grappling so if they find themselves on the ground in a street fight they have the tools to protect themselves and get up off the ground as quickly as possible.
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    aaradia
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    I think a difference in the culture behind some MMAists is part of the divide. Looking for fights- it is true. Anyone who doubts it needs to read UFC fighter Forrest Griffin's "Got Fight?" He talks about doing just this
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    Mark R. Banninated

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    "I still believe TMA Students should learn the basics of grappling so if they find themselves on the ground in a street fight they have the tools to protect themselves and get up off the ground as quickly as possible." -Doppelganger

    I agree with you but I just don't think that most TCMists are that interested in learning how to grapple hence the reason they joined a Chinese martial art school. I myself wrestled in high school all 4 years and 1 year in college. I also did about a yr of BJJ to learn the submissions so I could incorporate them with my wrestling experience but the grappling arts are by no means my priority.....TCM is. I personally don't like the learning enviroment that most MMA gym offer. To much ego.
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    Unkotare
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    The idea of teaching someone just a little bit of grappling (even with a truly qualified instructor) and giving them the idea that "Now you're all set. You can 'anti-grapple' and avoid being taken down or get up from a down position whenever you have to and get back to your kungfu," is a dangerous illusion. People who have grappled for decades can't just 'decide' to avoid a takedown or escape from a down position whenever they "have to," depending on the circumstances and opponent(s). Presenting grappling as just some 'extra' thing that you can spend a little time on and be confident about is irresponsible.
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    aaradia
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    Well ok now! I think I get where you are coming from better, Unkotare!

    If I understand you correctly, you think that many stand up TMAists are not respecting the "skill achieved through hard work over a long period of time" aspect in the grappling arts. That you perceive many just think they can dabble in it and that is ok, where they would NEVER think it is ok for someone to dabble in their standup arts and be considered proficient in it?

    We would never say that a grappler can take a few classes in standup arts and "learn to throw a few punches and knock someone out- thereby being ok in a standup fight", yet we seem to be saying "oh take some classes in grappling and then you never have to worry about being taken to the ground?"

    Am I getting your position?
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    So if this is your mentality then you must be also against all the women's self defense courses or krav maga seminars that people take because if they go up against a trained martial artist they are pretty much SOL.

    I was saying that TMA should learn the basics of grappling so they can defend them selves under the assumption of that they were going against an average person that took them to the ground to ground and pound on them. I wasn't thinking we were talking about going up against an experienced grappler (even though a TMA would stand a better chance against one if they knew the basics of grappling).
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    clfsean
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    For a quick derail on a topic I soapbox on

    <insertion of soap box>
    ... I say that.

    You can take any normal woman today, put her in one of these canned classes you're talking about above & after it's all said & done, it will fail her if I choose it too. Fortunately, I don't find myself the type of person to do that, but I know me. I'm big enough & training aside, just mean enough to if I decide to impose my will on another person (a woman given the post target), I can & unless they're better trained AND meaner than me... I win.

    People need to train to learn how to defend themselves, not attend a seminar & expect to realistically defend themselves. Are there situations where it's worked, to be sure. As the exception though, not the rule.

    I mean... would you want me as your brain surgeon after I watched a Nat Geo documentary on it, would you? Same kinda thing...

    <removal of soap box>
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    clfsean
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    Boffo... :happy:
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    I agree with the self defense courses and seminar being a joke Sean but still think they might help a minimal amount part of the time. I would never tell some one to do one of those courses but I still stand by my opinion that a TMA will stand a better chance against an average Joe in a street fight if they ended up on the ground.

    Why not teach them how to lock their legs around the hips of the opponent to prevent from being mounted and smashed on till the fight can be broken up or better yet so thy can use their TMA weapons they already know while in the guard like eye gouging or rigid claw to the eyes, spear hands to the throat or eyes, tiger or dragon claws to the face or ears, Phoenix eye strikes to the temple, mind point or throat. I guess if would be better just to get mounted then pounded on till hopefully someone comes to the rescue.
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    Unkotare
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    Am I against a bunch of out of shape, middle-aged women taking a seminar and then being encouraged to walk around with a dangerously false sense of security? You're damn right I am.
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    Unkotare
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    I know. My point still holds.
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    Well I guess the police and armed forces waste our tax payers money because they all do crash courses and seminars in self defense when we all already know that it's pointless because they have weapons so why does most of the military teach the basics of grappling an self defense now?
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    clfsean
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    Hand to hand now, is like it was in the fuedal days. Last resort. The trick is that if it is the last resort, have the most concise & meanest bags of tricks out there.


    Most LEOs I know study some grappling on their own time to enhance what they have to use from their respective academies & OJT experiences. Most also do the same with striking as well. Also most of the ones I know (met one recently) attend seminars to get an idea on something. It helps them weigh & measure its usefulness & validity to what they do without becoming tangled up with a school or single teacher. They know what they need & they can pretty much tell in a seminar if they need to keep going down that road or not.
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    Unkotare
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    A TMA with no (real) grappling training? What on earth would give you that idea?
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    Unkotare
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    Because while they are trying to do that based on minimal, if not incorrect, training they are likely to get hurt even worse. See my previous comments about irresponsibility.
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    clfsean
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    Wow... this is spooky. I'm almost 100% in agreement with Unk... has anybody seen a rogue planet in orbit or has heard if flurries have hit the central circle of Hell yet? I think it's happening now...
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    LOL Sean

    Everybody has their own opinions And mine is I don't believe having a voluntary based basic grappling course at a TMA school to teach their students how to defend them selves against an average joe in a fight is wrong or being irresponsible. If I was a head instructor I'd much rather have my students attend a basic grappling course then not to so they don't end up a black sash or a black belt that's just gets ground and pounded on by a nobody because they have no clue how to at least defend themselves on the ground.

    Just as a scenario if you took 50 TMA black sashes from the same school and had 25 take a supplementary grappling class for 6 months and the other 25 not take the classes then had them do a MMA style sparring tournament against eachother your saying the grappling class wouldn't have helped at all?

    Now if you say that it's a sport and the tma cant use there techniques then use it as a street fighting scenario instead of MMA scenario.

    If I was a gambling man I would bet all my money on the 25 that took the supplementary grappling course because it would make a difference even after just 6 months of supplementary training.
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    Doppelganger CLF,WC, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan & Grappling

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    I still don't get how you think a grappling class that taught the basics of grappling and gave even just a few hours of mat time a week to their students is irresponsible especially now since your even saying from a qualified grappling instructor. A few hours every week for about 6 months is all you need to start to grasp the basics and to actually feel what to expect when you get swept thrown or taken down then mounted or thrown in a side mount or scarf hold. Its not giving the students a dangerous illusion or false sense of security like your saying. It's conditioning them and training them on what to expect if they end up on the ground and giving them the ability to calm down and not to panic because they have been in this position 20-50-100 times before because of the suplementary grappling training they previously did. If they are able to be calm and not panic like a fish out of water this will allow them to start to try to get to a better position or try a sweep or escape or who knows maybe even get lucky and submit the attacker.

    If your saying a student that can learn traditional forms and strikes can't learn anything from a basic grappling group class over a period of a few months Then I'm sorry to say your just hating on the grappling concept and are blinding yourself with your own ignorance. I can personally say my first month of grappling was an eye opener and I learned a huge amount then the 3 month and 6 month marks I gained the ability of knowing what danger i was in when held in each grappling position and knew a few escapes or submissions from each basic position.

    If anybody doubts this go watch a grappling tournament they will have BJJ white belt with only minimal may time pulling off impressive sweeps from the guard and submissions and they are going up against other people at their own level of training not a non trained person that is just trying to ground and pound you.
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    Unkotare
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    Maybe this will help you understand better: Flip it around and have someone take just a few hours once a week for six months of whatever style of kungfu you like. After six months of that 'intensive' training, how do you think he will fare against Joe Nothintolose whose only training is that he's gotten into street fights every other week since he was 12?

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