Collapse Sidebar
  1. Welcome to The Dragon's List!
    If you have not registered on The Dragon's List, the process is fast, easy, and free! You can register by clicking here.
    If you have already registered you can log in by clicking here.

Wing Chun Vs. Tai Chi

Discussion in 'The Battlefront' started by Hero, Sep 4, 2005.

  1. Offline

    Hero

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I used to think that Wing Chun would dominate 1on1, both fighters with equal training and sifu ... I dont know now what I have heard about tai chi...

    How would pushing hands go against sticking hands etc...

    So what do YOU think ?:deal:
  2. Offline

    FightingFat
    Knight of the Old Code

    Posts:
    57
    Likes:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Essex, England.
    Depends on the skill of the individuals in my opinion! :)

    I think sticky hands is a different thing to pushing hands- they serve different purposes, so you can't really compare the two like for like.

    Wing Chun is definitely best though! :p
  3. Offline

    dynir

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If it works keep it till you find something better.
  4. Offline

    aqira
    Super Moderator

    Posts:
    13
    Likes:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    FLFL
    Maybe a better way to look at it is learning and combining the use into your personal skill of both sticking hands and push hands principals.
  5. Offline

    dynir

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    probably. Although don't be unwilling to drop something if it is not effective, or to replace it with something new.
  6. Offline

    SunWuKung

    Posts:
    314
    Likes:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Sticking hands and Pushing hands have similair principles of sensitivity, though they exploit different mechanics and overall strategy.



    Wing Chun exploits a linear path to the target when it is available/appropriate, whereas push hands focusses less on barraging your opponent with strikes and more on upsetting the stance/delivering one almighty great blow. Tui Shou tends to harmonise , whereas Chi Sao tends to disrupt, although Lok Sao training is very similair to Tui Shou with respect to redirection.



    Both systems learn to be deceptive with application of energy, sometimes aiming to achieve a reaction, sometimes aiming to achieve none. I get the feeling that Push Hands was intended for use against "long bridge" fighters - though that is not to say it is limited to this style of opponent.



    The main problem you'll find is that there are very few exponents of Tai Chi that willingly spar or test their style, and often (as a result) they can only apply Push Hands as a training exercise, which dissappears when you practise sparring and the ranges change every few seconds.



    As with all arts, it's about the quality of the exponent, not the style. If I do unbeatable style x for 1 week against a seasoned boxer, it doesn't matter - I'm gonna get floored. Focus on the system that suits you. For me, it was Wing Chun, although I will definitely want to resume my study of Tai Chi later in life.
  7. Offline

    TaichiMantis Allumni

    Posts:
    5
    Likes:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Styles:
    CCK TCPM
    Years:
    10
    “Quite often, people, especially men, who think they are macho, will look down on tai chi because it looks graceful,” he said. “They look at it and often say ‘Oh, these people are just dancing, they’re wimps’ and they’re wrong. All my fighters must meditate and use tai chi as part of their training. We do one hour of body conditioning and then one hour of training.”

    Chin said he doesn’t like closet karate teachers who tell others how great they are and explains that if they think they’re that good, then they should participate in a tournaments and prove it.

    “I teach the Tibetan Hop Gar technique, which is a form of fighting kung fu, as well as a wrestling system called the Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu system,” he explained. “I encourage my students to test their skills through tournaments, which can get pretty brutal, and know where (their skill levels) are at. Life keeps changing, don’t criticize others, put your own skills to work. Most of my students are also teachers.”

    In the ring, Chris Heintzman, found tai chi very useful when it helped him defeat a professional fighter in a tournament in Akron, Ohio.

    “I’ve done tai chi before, but they never did the inner workings of the form ... it was just moving,” he explained. “As time went on it definitely changed the way you see things and the strength you gain because it builds you at a different level. The hard training I went through (with Chin) allowed me to beat Mark “The Shark” Miller within seconds of the first round.”



    excerpted from http://www.paraglideonline.net/archive/2005/6-2-05/sports.shtml
  8. Offline

    john100
    Moderator

    Posts:
    1,004
    Likes:
    572
    Trophy Points:
    203
    I went the other way. The wing chun available to me was too limited. Tai chi offered me a way to overcome limitations as a fighter that wing chun wasn't addressing. If I were to split myself into two people, one who had stayed training primarily wing chun and one who gave it up to focus completely on tai chi then I thing the second would win any fight.
  9. Offline

    FightingFat
    Knight of the Old Code

    Posts:
    57
    Likes:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Essex, England.
    Could that be because of the Wing Chun you were learning?
  10. Offline

    SunWuKung

    Posts:
    314
    Likes:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    133
    I agree FF, good Wing Chun is hard to find. I think it's very easy to be overtly forceful and heavy handed in Wing Chun, and people can often focus more on the hitting than on the sensitivity. I went to 4 major Wing Chun schools and hated them before I ended up settling into the one I train at now.



    John, can I ask you to elaborate on the limitations you felt as a fighter?
  11. Offline

    FightingFat
    Knight of the Old Code

    Posts:
    57
    Likes:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Essex, England.
    Yes, I'm interested in how you felt limited in Wing Chun.
  12. Offline

    john100
    Moderator

    Posts:
    1,004
    Likes:
    572
    Trophy Points:
    203
    Entirely, but I went round London - which has a lot of WC schools - and everything else was worse... FF, don't forget you're a tall, strong bloke, prone to saying things like "a good fighter for a little guy" - could that be because of the WC you're learning? :)

    I didn't have good rooting and it wasn't getting any better. Schools that taught better rooting had lousy footwork. I didn't have the power I needed to really shake an attacker without point hitting. Schools that taught more power were lousy at chi sau. I could close with and grab my oponents and hold them and then neither of us had a clue what to do next. The stand up grappling didn't work. Other schools either left it out (and IMO it's essential if you don't have bulk and reach) or taught it even worse. Against a good kicker or striker with better reach I couldn't close to start using offensive moves. I could defend effectively, and mash up the attacking limb with my elbows/knees when lucky but that's a game you can only play for so long.

    I found that doing tai chi standing before class made for better sparring than doing chi sau, and when I discovered fa jing during chi sau I was convinced. Tai chi turned a gentle tap to the side of the neck into a move that floored the other guy... that was something I wanted more of. Who cared if my timing got a bit rusty with not sparring...
  13. Offline

    SunWuKung

    Posts:
    314
    Likes:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    133
    IMHO, I think tai chi provides a solid understanding of mechanics, and it gives you the tools to analyse one's failings in terms of stance, position, sensitivity etc. I think there are many WC practitioners out there that are going to woe the day they started Chor Ma because they don't keep their knees in line with their toes. At the same time, I'll be damned if I've found many schools that try and apply tai chi as a fighting style.



    Perhaps the fact that you've done Wing Chun means you have some basics that feed well into your tai chi, and for me the reverse is true. My old tai chi teacher slagged WC to high heaven, but my feeling was that part of his skill was directly related to his background in hard styles.



    My general impression is that Wing Chun establishes an overall framework for understanding a fight: out of range, bridging, in range, Chi Sao. It also helps you realise when an opening is actually available, or when the line of attack has been closed off.



    I think people need to understand both the soft and the hard to develop the flexibility of approach to deal with different types of fighter.
  14. Offline

    john100
    Moderator

    Posts:
    1,004
    Likes:
    572
    Trophy Points:
    203
    I would say tai chi is a great second style and WC a great first one.
  15. Offline

    baqi9

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I've heard that students of tai chi develop their root faster than us wing chun students...why? and could you give sample exercises that speedup this development.
  16. Offline

    Allan_Tsang

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey TCM, are you a student of David Chin's?

    As for CLF being a wrestling system, I don't think so.

    The hop gar and CLF is definitely a powerful combination. When I spoke with him, he seem to lean towards the hop gar - me too for smashing people in. But he liked his bagua for grappling. A XY guy as well.

    Just curious as to whether you are his student.

    Allan
  17. Offline

    TaichiMantis Allumni

    Posts:
    5
    Likes:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Styles:
    CCK TCPM
    Years:
    10


    Nope, just like the thoughts in the article. Around here, the only good tai chi is by grandmaster Ly Yen Hoa but I'm not sure to what level and application he teaches....hmmmm, should probably check it out. Hop Gar and CLF are southern styles right? My sifu learned some Pak Mei from Professor Randy Choy in Hawaii and Brian Cheng in Hawaii....some pretty nasty stuff from what I hear.
  18. Offline

    SunWuKung

    Posts:
    314
    Likes:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    133


    Tai Chi is a brilliant sample exercise that speeds up the development of the rooting.



    Alternatively, standing QiGong is a good way of developing your root.



    Lok Sao is a good way of training your rooting in WC, very similair to some of the drills in Tai Chi.



    It's all about balance, and sensing what's happening inside. Direct your mind to visualise the rooting idea, imagine a great weight hanging from your centre 6 feet under the deck. Relax the body, allowing the skeletal alignment to maintain your stance. If done correctly, you'll feel the gravity of the situation.



    Ultimately, you want to dissolve the barrier between you and the forces around you.
  19. Offline

    baqi9

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    thanks, Inshallah i'll try that.
  20. Offline

    Mei Hua

    Posts:
    0
    Likes:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What about other things than push hands?

    I used to study with an Tai Chi instructor who also taught just how effective it is in combat with things other than push hands.

    Options such as sweeps, hooks, grabs, kicks, punches, etc. etc. etc....

    Are you familiar with Tai Chi Chung? The version less known but much more combat oriented?

    My vote's on Tai Chi, there's a reason it's known as "Grand Ultimate Fist."

Share This Page